Browns rant thread.

[The Human Q-Tip]

Yes, his production in college was elite. I never disputed that. I just provided context.

Wasn't the dispute about whether he had elite measurables, though? I'm not sure how context matters there - he was at the season combine as everyone else.

What you're really talking about are things other than measurables.

 

[FiveThous]

Yes, his production in college was elite. I never disputed that. I just provided context.

You're basing your argument off of talking head analysis. I refuse to let you off that easy. Go find something that compares points per possession and see what conference is better. I'm not just going to buy OH SEC IS GOD BRO arguments. It's silly.

 

[The Oi]

I think it’s kind of entertaining seeing how bad it can get every year.

Each year the team hits a new low and something more ridiculous than the previous year happens.

Guys injuring themselves on footballs, the owner getting investigated for scamming people, passing on future pro- bowl QBs year after year, using record numbers of QBs every year, Weeden’s flip pick-6s and the American flag incident, McCown’s 360 spin injury in game 1, the Ravens blocked FG- TD, all the crushing red zone TO’s...

Like...this kind of stuff is honestly funny to me. It’s kind of entertaining to root for this shit at this point.

Hall of Fame LT Joe Thomas retiring before they can trade him to a Super Bowl contender would be very Browns-y.

On this topic...

If you were to create a “Ridiculous events that could only happen in Cleveland during an 0-16 season” simulator, what other kinds of things that haven’t happened yet would be left?

@gourimoko tagging you in as a developer/coder/whatever the hell you are

@SuperSurge @Huber. @natedagg

 

[Los216]

Watson throwing to an elite WR duo is part of it. His backyard play style that doesn't have a particularly good track record in the NFL is another.

But mostly? Because Bill O'Brien is (intelligently) basically running Clemson's offense for the guy. No wonder he looks so comfortable out there, considering he's running familiar concepts with elite WRs.

So my assertion was that I'm nowhere near convinced Watson would have had success regardless of destination. Judging by the Browns (in)ability to put players in positions to succeed (Jabrill, DeShone, Crowell, etc), I think it's safe to say Watson would have looked like dawg shit here.

Philly is running ND State offense. How do I know this? Because Wentz and Doug Pederson confirmed it. Gruden mentioned it at least 5 times last night. Watson looks better at this stage than Wentz did last year. Th WR core in Philly is about even with HOU. I don't know how you can discredit Watson for doing the exact same thing that Wentz is doing lol. They are both running offenses catered to what they did in college.

 

[chrisrich91]

Philly is running ND State offense. How do I know this? Because Wentz and Doug Pederson confirmed it. Gruden mentioned it at least 5 times last night. Watson looks better at this stage than Wentz did last year. Th WR core in Philly is about even with HOU. I don't know how you can discredit Watson for doing the exact same thing that Wentz is doing lol. They are both running offenses catered to what they did in college.

I think Wentz could survive and prosper in a myriad of systems based on the skillset I've seen from him. I'm not convinced of that with Watson and his weaknesses that were discussed ad nauseum on here during draft season.

My point was that I think Wentz would have been good here. I think Watson would have struggled mightily. But that's not intended to discredit Watson as much as it is discrediting the Cleveland Browns.

 

[inliner311]

Pryor is basically a one trick pony. Dude should have taken the more than fair deal the Browns offered last year.

I think the thing that set Pryor apart last year was he knew Hue's offense the best out of anyone outside of Hue himself. He could lineup at any position on offense that wasn't on the Oline. That's what made him hard to defend. He could be at WR on one play, QB/wildcat the next, line up in the slot, take a handoff, etc. It wasn't that he just could run all the routes or knew the plays, he knew the adjustments and thought like a QB.

He doesn't have that with any other offense other than Hue's. It took him years as a backup QB studying to get to that point, he probably won't get to that level with any other offense in his career.

If I'm the front office I try to trade for him and take some pressure off Hue and Kizer. Get Hue another weapon to use with Duke. There shouldn't be any problem signing him in the future given his struggles with the redskins.

 

[Kiddo]

Pryor is basically a one trick pony. Dude should have taken the more than fair deal the Browns offered last year.

Kid bet on himself and he's losing big time. Should've taken the 3 year deal the Browns offered him and built off of a solid first year as a wr. Should the Browns consider trading a 5th - 6th draft pick or is that bridge burned? I had envisioned him and Gordon spread out wide with Coleman in the slot. What a trio that could've been!!

 

[Los216]

What elite measurables? He's small and he's soft. What is elite about him other than foot speed?

He was dominant in college because he was fast and played in the Big 12 where nobody plays a lick of defense. It's the same reason all those shitty Big 12 QB's have ridiculous stats every year. @FiveThous compared his production to OBJ's which is kind of silly because OBJ did it against SEC defenses (and with terrible QB's throwing to him).

Corey Coleman was the top rated WR in that draft. We don't need to be revisionist here. He won every single award for WR's that year. He literally swept all the awards. He was the only guy who was in everyones top 2 at WR that draft. The only WR's in that draft who have out produced him are Michael Thomas who is playing with Drew Brees and Tyreke Hill who had off the field issues.

Corey Coleman is the clear third best WR in that draft unless you think Will Fuller is better but with Will Fuller he has also been injured and he's not the teams WR1. Fuller is a WR2. He never sees double teams and teams aren't scheming against him. The only thing that has slowed Coleman is injuries but it's weird how I see people praising Doctson when he is just now able to even get on the field and is not very productive. Even guys like Sterling Shepard who has the luxury of playing with a HOF QB and opposite OBJ is not superior to Coleman. He's another guy who's not a WR1 on his team.

Finally I'll ask what about Laquon Tredwell? The guy who people has going as high as number 2 overall? He hasn't done shit either. There were people crowning him because of his physical play but even when he hasn't been injured he's had quite a few healthy scratches.

Bottom line is the only guy who you could argue we should've taken was Michael Thomas but there are stronger arguments against taking Michael Thomas at 15 than taking the most explosive WR and one of the top athletes in the draft at 15 which is what we did. Let's get a grip here and give Corey Coleman the same luxury that people have no problem giving Doctson and Tredwell before we start labeling him a bust. C'mon bruhs.

 

[inliner311]

Kid bet on himself and he's losing big time. Should've taken the 3 year deal the Browns offered him and built off of a solid first year as a wr. Should the Browns consider trading a 5th - 6th draft pick or is that bridge burned? I had envisioned him and Gordon spread out wide with Coleman in the slot. What a trio that could've been!!

Britt and Pryor have very similar contracts especially with the details that came out Monday how the 6.5 million of Britt's previous reported guaranteed money isn't actually owed to him if he is cut by 3/16. Both organization will eat their salaries if they are cut. I think it makes alot of sense to swap them and hope the change of scenery help them get on track. There isn't much risk on either side and I bet we will eat any cost different in salary to make it work.

 

[Los216]

I think Wentz could survive and prosper in a myriad of systems based on the skillset I've seen from him. I'm not convinced of that with Watson and his weaknesses that were discussed ad nauseum on here during draft season.

My point was that I think Wentz would have been good here. I think Watson would have struggled mightily. But that's not intended to discredit Watson as much as it is discrediting the Cleveland Browns.

And my point is it's not just the fact that both guys are running a system catered to them in college. And speaking of that ND runs a pro style system. Hue runs a pro style system so I find it funny how people keep asking Hue to dumb down the offense when we got the one QB in the draft who was most comfortable running a pro style system. Again people changing narratives to fit their argument.

Anyways back to Wentz and Watson. It's more than just the system. Watson was not expected to take HOU to the playoffs. Yes they have a playoff caliber roster but the plan all along for him was to sit him. Same with Wentz. Wentz was intended to sit and learn until a totally unexpected Teddy Bridgewater injury which set off a wave of moves.

Now look at Kizer. Just like the other two guys he was not expected to lead his team to the playoffs and was also expected to sit and learn. Here's the difference with Kizer and any other QB that we would've drafted and put in his position. The pressure of playing QB here is more immense than walking into a situation with a playoff caliber team. Kizer has a lot more on him than both Wentz and Watson. Here's why. Wentz and Watson know that they aren't playing for their jobs. They never were. They never had to worry about their team being on the hunt for a new QB to replace them. Kizer was always going to have to deal with that due to the situation here. So not only do you have a guy who is a rookie that still needs to develop but you're essentially putting him in a position where the expectations are for him to not only succeed to to prove himself worthy of even being the FQB. Watson doesn't have to do that. HOU and Philly were never going to draft QB's high again after taking them.

What was the very first thing said when HOU and Philly made their picks? They got their FQB. They can now move forward with their guys. When we drafted Kizer the very first thing people were saying is "This doesn't mean that they can't take a FQB high next year" Imagine that. Look at the distinctions between them. Two guys who were drafted on good teams who could've sat but played with no pressure. Another guy who was drafted later than they were with intentions to sit like them and was also thrust into action but somehow the expectations for Kizer are way higher than that of Wentz and Watson. Why is that? I would love to hear an answer for that one. Nobody can sit up here and honestly deny that Kizer is playing with more pressure on him than Wentz and Watson ever were. Why?

 

[inliner311]

Bottom line is the only guy who you could argue we should've taken was Michael Thomas but there are stronger arguments against taking Michael Thomas at 15 than taking the most explosive WR and one of the top athletes in the draft at 15 which is what we did. Let's get a grip here and give Corey Coleman the same luxury that people have no problem giving Doctson and Tredwell before we start labeling him a bust. C'mon bruhs.

To add to this, everyone knew Micheal Thomas's floor was that he was going to be a decent NFL player. He was a great route runner but he ceiling was in question. He rarely showed his athleticism at Ohio State. His route running and hands was how he beat defenders. He was a better version of Brian Robiskie. Michael Thomas ran a slightly faster 40 at 4.55, Robiskie ran a 4.59. Both we're known for great route running and good hands.

If you think about it that way, it clear why we went with Coleman. I thought it started to click for Coleman before he got hurt. I thought he looked like he could still be our #1 receiver if he stays healthy.

 

[Los216]

To add to this, everyone knew Micheal Thomas's floor was that he was going to be a decent NFL player. He was a great route runner but he ceiling was in question. He rarely showed his athleticism at Ohio State. His route running and hands was how he beat defenders. He was a better version of Brian Robiskie. Michael Thomas ran a slightly faster 40 at 4.55, Robiskie ran a 4.59. Both we're known for great route running and good hands.

If you think about it that way, it clear why we went with Coleman. I thought it started to click for Coleman before he got hurt. I thought he looked like he could still be our #1 receiver if he stays healthy.

And Michael Thomas is exactly that. A good route runner with great hands. He's not explosive. He can win some 1 on 1 matchups for you but he isn't commanding any double teams and he plays in a spread out system. He playing like people though he would.

 

[Ohio]

Wasn't the dispute about whether he had elite measurables, though? I'm not sure how context matters there - he was at the season combine as everyone else.

What you're really talking about are things other than measurables.

Well it has been about both. Jack mentioned both his measurables and his production. I replied to that questioning his measurables and providing context to his production. Five responded with details. Etc.

You're basing your argument off of talking head analysis. I refuse to let you off that easy. Go find something that compares points per possession and see what conference is better. I'm not just going to buy OH SEC IS GOD BRO arguments. It's silly.

I'm basing my argument based on the many hours of college football that I watch. I don't wait until the offseason to start paying attention to college players like most do. And it's not so much about the SEC as it is about the Big 12.

For example, Graham Harrell was never at any point better than Matthew Stafford. But Harrell's production fucking blew Stafford's out of the water.

Corey Coleman was the top rated WR in that draft. We don't need to be revisionist here. He won every single award for WR's that year. He literally swept all the awards. He was the only guy who was in everyones top 2 at WR that draft. The only WR's in that draft who have out produced him are Michael Thomas who is playing with Drew Brees and Tyreke Hill who had off the field issues.

College awards never tell the whole story. And I don't remember Coleman being thought of as the consensus #1 WR in that class. He certainly wasn't mine.

Corey Coleman is the clear third best WR in that draft unless you think Will Fuller is better but with Will Fuller he has also been injured and he's not the teams WR1. Fuller is a WR2. He never sees double teams and teams aren't scheming against him. The only thing that has slowed Coleman is injuries but it's weird how I see people praising Doctson when he is just now able to even get on the field and is not very productive. Even guys like Sterling Shepard who has the luxury of playing with a HOF QB and opposite OBJ is not superior to Coleman. He's another guy who's not a WR1 on his team.

Finally I'll ask what about Laquon Tredwell? The guy who people has going as high as number 2 overall? He hasn't done shit either. There were people crowning him because of his physical play but even when he hasn't been injured he's had quite a few healthy scratches.

Bottom line is the only guy who you could argue we should've taken was Michael Thomas but there are stronger arguments against taking Michael Thomas at 15 than taking the most explosive WR and one of the top athletes in the draft at 15 which is what we did. Let's get a grip here and give Corey Coleman the same luxury that people have no problem giving Doctson and Tredwell before we start labeling him a bust. C'mon bruhs.

Why do people have such a hard time distinguishing the difference between criticizing a BROWNS draft pick and calling said pick a bust? Who is calling Coleman a bust? Seriously?

You dropped a lot of names, so I'll go through them quickly.

Doctson - liked him, did not want him with that pick
Treadwell - wanted nothing to do with him
Fuller - liked him, did not want him with that pick
Coleman - liked him, did not want him with that pick

You can probably guess where I'm going from here, but if you think I'm bullshitting you can find posts from me before/during the 2015 college season calling Michael Thomas the best WR in that class, which so far he has been by a long shot. There were others on this board who thought so as well. It's just unfortunate. I don't think Coleman is a bust, or was even a BAD pick...if he can just stay on the damn field I think he's a solid WR2 and that's OK. It's just not who I would have taken and certainly would not go back and take him again. Honestly I can't believe there are people who would.

 

[Chris]

I didn't praise the trade down. I think the mentality behind trading down stinks. Trading down means as a front office you don't want to make a tough decision that you have to stand behind on a particular player or position, so you don't make a decision at all. You just kick the can down the road. Trading down is the easy way out.

Not to mention trading down has blown up in this organization's face repeatedly.

The biggest problem that this organization has is not that it doesn't have a franchise quarterback. It's that it hasn't really even tried to get a franchise quarterback. All they're trying to do is get lucky at the position on the cheap, drafting a guy late in the 2nd/3rd round and hoping he works out. Hope isn't a plan. It's like a guy who won't beat the pavement to get a job but plays the lottery instead. It hasn't worked and never will.

I wish I could like this a hundred times. Represents my opinion on this to a T.

I won't go as far as to claim I was a huge Wentz advocate at draft time, but I don't think I was against taking him. And I'm not getting paid to make these decisions, either.

 

[Ohio]

To add to this, everyone knew Micheal Thomas's floor was that he was going to be a decent NFL player. He was a great route runner but he ceiling was in question. He rarely showed his athleticism at Ohio State. His route running and hands was how he beat defenders. He was a better version of Brian Robiskie. Michael Thomas ran a slightly faster 40 at 4.55, Robiskie ran a 4.59. Both we're known for great route running and good hands.

If you think about it that way, it clear why we went with Coleman. I thought it started to click for Coleman before he got hurt. I thought he looked like he could still be our #1 receiver if he stays healthy.

And Michael Thomas is exactly that. A good route runner with great hands. He's not explosive. He can win some 1 on 1 matchups for you but he isn't commanding any double teams and he plays in a spread out system. He playing like people though he would.

I pretty much agree with all of this. What makes him great is his route running, his hands, and his size. His floor was very high in my eyes, so a low risk in that regard. I agree he didn't have the ceiling that Coleman and others did due to top end speed. But, he is playing exactly like I thought he would. He's killing teams in the intermediate game, bullying CB's with his size and moving the chains.

This is a great article recapping his rookie season:

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-how-michael-thomas-went-from-second-rounder-to-star

Some of the best WRs of all-time played like Thomas. The WR position is not all about foot speed...this isn't Madden. Not everyone is Randy Moss. Is his production slightly inflated because of Brees? Sure. But his skillset would work anywhere. He's going to be a damn good WR for a long time.