Browns rant thread.

[Los216]

Well it has been about both. Jack mentioned both his measurables and his production. I replied to that questioning his measurables and providing context to his production. Five responded with details. Etc.


I'm basing my argument based on the many hours of college football that I watch. I don't wait until the offseason to start paying attention to college players like most do. And it's not so much about the SEC as it is about the Big 12.

For example, Graham Harrell was never at any point better than Matthew Stafford. But Harrell's production fucking blew Stafford's out of the water.


College awards never tell the whole story. And I don't remember Coleman being thought of as the consensus #1 WR in that class. He certainly wasn't mine.


Why do people have such a hard time distinguishing the difference between criticizing a BROWNS draft pick and calling said pick a bust? Who is calling Coleman a bust? Seriously?

You dropped a lot of names, so I'll go through them quickly.

Doctson - liked him, did not want him with that pick
Treadwell - wanted nothing to do with him
Fuller - liked him, did not want him with that pick
Coleman - liked him, did not want him with that pick

You can probably guess where I'm going from here, but if you think I'm bullshitting you can find posts from me before/during the 2015 college season calling Michael Thomas the best WR in that class, which so far he has been by a long shot. There were others on this board who thought so as well. It's just unfortunate. I don't think Coleman is a bust, or was even a BAD pick...if he can just stay on the damn field I think he's a solid WR2 and that's OK. It's just not who I would have taken and certainly would not go back and take him again. Honestly I can't believe there are people who would.

Michael Thomas has a low ceiling. I don't think he'll be much better than he is now especially with a QB not as good as Brees. If Corey Coleman were healthy and playing with Drew Brees he would be as good as Brandon Cooks was with him or better. Look Michael Thomas is a very solid WR. Corey Coleman still has a chance to be an elite WR. The browns didn't want to take a solid WR with the 15 pick in the draft. They wanted to go and get the prospect with higher upside and more elite skills.

Michal Thomas has better hands and route running ability than Corey Coleman.

Corey Coleman has better speed, agility, athleticism, he attacks the ball better. He's more versatile. he can play in the slot and you can use him as a rusher and return man. Michael Thomas is an outside receiver. Corey Coleman's ceiling is like a Steve Smith. Michael Thomas ceiling is more like a Alshon Jeffery. They can both be a WR1 in the right circumstance and they both bring things to the table. It also depends on what kind of offense you want to run. The Saints already had a guy who does what Coleman does when they drafted Thomas. Michael Thomas here would not be as productive and wouldn't be utilized the same. Coleman is more suited for the offense that we run.

 

[Ohio]

Michael Thomas has a low ceiling. I don't think he'll be much better than he is now especially with a QB not as good as Brees. If Corey Coleman were healthy and playing with Drew Brees he would be as good as Brandon Cooks was with him or better. Look Michael Thomas is a very solid WR. Corey Coleman still has a chance to be an elite WR. The browns didn't want to take a solid WR with the 15 pick in the draft. They wanted to go and get the prospect with higher upside and more elite skills.

Thomas walked into NO as a rookie and overtook Cooks as the #1 option...

How many elite WRs are there at Coleman's size? How many are there at Thomas' size? I bet the difference is staggering.

You can be elite without having elite speed.

Michal Thomas has better hands and route running ability than Corey Coleman.

Corey Coleman has better speed, agility, athleticism, he attacks the ball better. He's more versatile. he can play in the slot and you can use him as a rusher and return man. Michael Thomas is an outside receiver. Corey Coleman's ceiling is like a Steve Smith. Michael Thomas ceiling is more like a Alshon Jeffery. They can both be a WR1 in the right circumstance and they both bring things to the table. It also depends on what kind of offense you want to run. The Saints already had a guy who does what Coleman does when they drafted Thomas. Michael Thomas here would not be as productive and wouldn't be utilized the same. Coleman is more suited for the offense that we run.

Coleman does not attack the ball better than Thomas...but I agree with the rest for the most part. Well other than Thomas' ceiling.

 

[inliner311]

Thomas walked into NO as a rookie and overtook Cooks as the #1 option...

How many elite WRs are there at Coleman's size? How many are there at Thomas' size? I bet the difference is staggering.

You can be elite without having elite speed.


Coleman does not attack the ball better than Thomas...but I agree with the rest for the most part. Well other than Thomas' ceiling.

I like Thomas but with our QBs, I just don't know if he would have close to the same success as he is having now. Great hands and route running go hand in hand with great timing, anticipation, and accuracy on a QB's part. The reason Thomas is so good is Brees get the ball to him on time and in the right place because Brees knows his route running with be on time and spot on. We just can't expect that from any QB we have on our roster yet.

 

[Snowblind]

It would great if Coleman could stay healthy but I really hope Hue starts using him like KC does with Hill. Basically all over the place, take screen passes, jet sweeps, in motion, just get him the ball in stride and good things will happen.

Same kinda goes for njoku. Use him all over the place like Graham and kelce. Obviously, this all depends on how much these guys know the playbook and for the qb to actually make the correct read. But the potential is there.

 

[FiveThous]

Thomas walked into NO as a rookie and overtook Cooks as the #1 option...

How many elite WRs are there at Coleman's size? How many are there at Thomas' size? I bet the difference is staggering.

You can be elite without having elite speed.


Coleman does not attack the ball better than Thomas...but I agree with the rest for the most part. Well other than Thomas' ceiling.

Off the top of my head, Antonio Brown, Randall Cobb, Steve Smith and OBJ. I'm sure there are more.

 

[Los216]

I wish I could like this a hundred times. Represents my opinion on this to a T.

I won't go as far as to claim I was a huge Wentz advocate at draft time, but I don't think I was against taking him. And I'm not getting paid to make these decisions, either.

Look. This is a fair assumption to have but we can't ignore the unique situation that our franchise was in. We weren't a meddling team like TB who has some success over the last decade here and there. We weren't JAX who at one point was a playoff team and have been stuck in rebuild turmoil the last few years. We were the clear cut worst franchise in the league for 15 years running. We stripped our team down more extreme than any of those other teams. New FO, new coaching, new philosophy, establish a new culture. That doesn't always mean you need to go get a QB first. In fact there's a strong argument that you shouldn't try and thrust a young high draft pick into that situation. It would not be ideal. You run a huge risk of ruining him like a Tim Couch or David Carr.

So you have two options. Hitch you wagon to a guy who you think is a sure fire FQB or invest those assets into constructing a team from the ground up and building some semblance of a foundation of a team. Remember we had no foundation and a horrible team culture. So unless it's blatantly obvious that the guy you are drafting is a Andrew Luck, Matt Ryan, Matt Stafford level QB prospect the deal scenario would be to invest in building your team and changing your culture. Fill some holes. There will be another opportunity to get a FQB. It's been proven. When you do get one you are in better position to support him and not Tim Couch or David Carr his ass.

I wish we could stop acting like Wentz was on the level of those prospects coming out. He wasn't. He wasn't on the level of Mariota or Winston even though you could argue that his skillset wasn't far off from Winston but Winston had a far better pedigree. Stop being revisionist. At the time we passed on Wentz nobody thought we were passing on an MVP candidate. Nobody!!!!! Even the people who liked Wentz did not tout him as an MVP contender in his second season. The Browns had a decision. Strip your team down bare and hand the keys to a guy who's maybe the 8th best QB prospect in the last 5 years and the most riskiest selection by far in the top 5 or invest those picks to start your rebuild. The chose to pass on the that prospect and at the time it was not considered to even be the biggest miss in the draft. The argument keeps getting shifted like Wentz was an elite QB prospect and projected to be an elite QB. He was not. Just because he's turning out to be does not mean the thinking at the time was asinine. In our situation it was not. Please stop with this.

 

[bigfoot5415]

Off the top of my head, Antonio Brown, Randall Cobb, Steve Smith and OBJ. I'm sure there are more.

I would wager to say, there are more WRs that produce under 6'1", than over.

 

[Triplethreat]

Wentz fucking hurts... really fucking bad.

At this point I think we're just always going to be run of the mill shit team. You can't miss on a guy like that... It's franchise altering.

 

[Los216]

Off the top of my head, Antonio Brown, Randall Cobb, Steve Smith and OBJ. I'm sure there are more.

OBJ
AB
Randall Cobb
Steve Smith Sr
Randall Cobb
Brandin Cooks
Doug Baldwin
Ty Hilton
Jarvis Landry
Emanuel Sanders
Julien Edelman
DeSean Jackson

 

[Chris]

Look. This is a fair assumption to have but we can't ignore the unique situation that our franchise was in. We weren't a meddling team like TB who has some success over the last decade here and there. We weren't JAX who at one point was a playoff team and have been stuck in rebuild turmoil the last few years. We were the clear cut worst franchise in the league for 15 years running. We stripped our team down more extreme than any of those other teams. New FO, new coaching, new philosophy, establish a new culture. That doesn't always mean you need to go get a QB first. In fact there's a strong argument that you shouldn't try and thrust a young high draft pick into that situation. It would not be ideal. You run a huge risk of ruining him like a Tim Couch or David Carr.

So you have two options. Hitch you wagon to a guy who you think is a sure fire FQB or invest those assets into constructing a team from the ground up and building some semblance of a foundation of a team. Remember we had no foundation and a horrible team culture. So unless it's blatantly obvious that the guy you are drafting is a Andrew Luck, Matt Ryan, Matt Stafford level QB prospect the deal scenario would be to invest in building your team and changing your culture. Fill some holes. There will be another opportunity to get a FQB. It's been proven. When you do get one you are in better position to support him and not Tim Couch or David Carr his ass.

I wish we could stop acting like Wentz was on the level of those prospects coming out. He wasn't. He wasn't on the level of Mariota or Winston even though you could argue that his skillset wasn't far off from Winston but Winston had a far better pedigree. Stop being revisionist. At the time we passed on Wentz nobody thought we were passing on an MVP candidate. Nobody!!!!! Even the people who liked Wentz did not tout him as an MVP contender in his second season. The Browns had a decision. Strip your team down bare and hand the keys to a guy who's maybe the 8th best QB prospect in the last 5 years and the most riskiest selection by far in the top 5 or invest those picks to start your rebuild. The chose to pass on the that prospect and at the time it was not considered to even be the biggest miss in the draft. The argument keeps getting shifted like Wentz was an elite QB prospect and projected to be an elite QB. He was not. Just because he's turning out to be does not mean the thinking at the time was asinine. In our situation it was not. Please stop with this.

These aren't even all terrible points.

The problem is, after 20 years of people making excuses, we are all at wits end. Which at the end of the day most of these points are just excuses for why we shouldn't blame the current regime for passing on the franchise QB that fell into our lap in Carson Wentz. The argument that nobody thought he would "be this good" is not a valid starting point. At some point, people need to be held accountable. Plenty liked Carson Wentz. He was going at the top of the draft, and the Browns had a chance to pick him. This isn't Dak Prescott going in the 4th round and being passed by every time multiple times.

I know you spoke to a couple people who work for the Browns and they assured you Palpatine-style that everything is proceeding as planned. But what evidence do we have? You speak of building a foundation and changing a culture so the FQB we do select can come in and not get killed. How's the culture look? The organization owner to water boy is a laughing stock more than it ever has been. Foundation? What foundation? You have a handful of talented players, even fewer who are actually producing at the NFL level, and your franchise LT is out for the season and might retire.

I work in a results based business so maybe I just see it differently. I don't need to see 8 wins in Year 2. I do need to see more than 0-7 and the entire organization being a dumpster fire with almost no positives to point to.

 

[Ohio]

Off the top of my head, Antonio Brown, Randall Cobb, Steve Smith and OBJ. I'm sure there are more.

Randall Cobb?

Like those other names, though

 

[Ohio]

OBJ
AB
Randall Cobb
Steve Smith Sr
Randall Cobb
Brandin Cooks
Doug Baldwin
Ty Hilton
Jarvis Landry
Emanuel Sanders
Julien Edelman
DeSean Jackson

I think we have different definitions of elite

 

[Ohio]

Anyway, what is the latest on Coleman beyond being sent home & staying out late? Is he expected to play this season?

 

[Los216]

I think we have different definitions of elite

Hmm

AB - Best WR in the league
OBJ - Best WR in the league or 1A
Steve Smith S - HOFer
Ty Hilton - Consistently top 5 in yards and targets, production even without Luck.
Jarvis Landry - Numbers ate near identical to OBJ and will pass him due to injury this year
Emanuel Sanders - Three straight 1k yard seasons...as a WR2.... Probably the best WR2 in the league tbh
DeSean Jackson - Still probably the biggest deep threat in the league at age 30. Consistently at 1k yards




Doug Baldwin
Julien Edelman
Randall Cobb
Brandin Cooks

With these guys I'm looking beyond the numbers. The way they are utilized mixed with their skillsets and how clutch they are. The all play with elite QB's but they always come through. There are different levels to being an elite WR like there are different levels to being an Superstar player. These four have all been the catalyst to their teams passing success. Without them their offenses are not the same. All underrated and I understand if you disagree with some of them.

 

[Ohio]

With these guys I'm looking beyond the numbers. The way they are utilized mixed with their skillsets and how clutch they are. The all play with elite QB's but they always come through. There are different levels to being an elite WR like there are different levels to being an Superstar player. These four have all been the catalyst to their teams passing success. Without them their offenses are not the same. All underrated and I understand if you disagree with some of them.

Yeah. I like all of these players and would love them on the Browns, but I definitely wouldn't call all of them elite or group them with the other guys on the list. Shit, with some of those names you could almost include Thomas in that group