Dream Team 4: Golden State Warriors

[bboy]

I'd note that Klay is out tonight except that NO ONE nationally cuts the Cavs/LeBron/Kyrie any slack when Love+JR or JR+Shump are out.

I'm not sure the national media even realizes the Cavs won the title...screw em...

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

I do not believe that. I'm willing to hear you out though if you have some stats backing that theory up He seems to have such a poor defensive awareness... The lack of athleticism hurts too. Seems terrible covering the PnR.

I edited my post. If you want to compare him to Towns, then Towns currently is at -1.66 DRPM while Jokic is at 0.67.
Centers/PF usually rank high in DRPM and DBPM but still isn't bad as Towns(worst among starting Centers by a wide margin) which I saw being compared to Jokic for being a much better defender.

 

[Ohio]

What I can't understand is when people go out of their way to convince themselves and others that this Warriors team is somehow not easily the most talented team of all time

I'm with you there.

and arguably one of the best teams of all time. It is what it is, and it's not praising them.

Personally, I don't think that can be argued at this point. Much like last years team, we need to see what they actually do in the playoffs first. You can't be the best ever before actually winning. But, people love to do this in sports nonetheless. 2016 Warriors, 2007 Patriots, 2005 USC, 2016 Alabama all immediately come to mind as teams that were crowned before they accomplished what actually matters.

They got lucky with the finances in a big way. And they've also gotten ridiculously lucky with injuries in a big way. Stuff has gone their way and they haven't earned everything that they've achieved.

No doubt.

But the fact remains that they're a juggernaut.

Of course.

And admitting and embracing that puts an even bigger smile on my face when I think back to what we did last June.

i guess we just all have different ways of hating those Bay Area bitches.

Agreed.

So, looks like we pretty much agree on everything, other than the GOAT argument. Unless I'm missing something, I don't think anyone here is really saying they aren't a great team. They obviously are. But, that doesn't mean they haven't been, and continue to be, overrated. As a team and as individuals. I'm not sure why it's a bad thing when this is pointed out? It's a refreshing dose of reality.

 

[Jstock12]

I edited my post. If you want to compare him to Towns, then Towns currently is at -1.66 DRPM while Jokic is at 0.67.
Centers/PF usually rank high in DRPM and DBPM but still isn't bad as Towns(worst among starting Centers by a wide margin) which I saw being compared to Jokic for being a much better defender.

That's interesting. His DFG% differentials are pretty horrid though. Could it be that he was being "hidden" on the defensive end playing alongside Nurkic for the most of the season? Nurkic is sporting a 1.96 DRPM (3x Jokic's DRPM), which for a team like these Nuggets is unprecedented, since they don't play any defense at all.

 

[BimboColesHair]

I edited my post. If you want to compare him to Towns, then Towns currently is at -1.66 DRPM while Jokic is at 0.67.
Centers/PF usually rank high in DRPM and DBPM but still isn't bad as Towns(worst among starting Centers by a wide margin) which I saw being compared to Jokic as being a much better defender.

DRPM is not a good defensive metric.

Players shoot 6% better against Jokic than average, one of the worst marks in the league for players getting regular minutes.

Gives up 1.26 PPP on PnRs, which puts him in the 7th percentile of all players (that's really bad).

Gives up 1.04 PPP on ISOs, which is in the 22.3 percentile of all players.

The only place I can find him being an average defensive player is defending post ups 1-on-1.

He is one of the best young offensive talents in the league, but his defense leaves a lot to be desired...he's got a ways to go to be average there.

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

That's interesting. His DFG% differentials are pretty horrid though. Could it be that he was being "hidden" on the defensive end playing alongside Nurkic for the most of the season? Nurkic is sporting a 1.96 DRPM (3x Jokic's DRPM), which for a team like these Nuggets is unprecedented, since they don't play any defense at all.

I think he was worse guarding PFs than he does guarding C's. Him and the Nuggets vastly improved ever since he was inserted into the starting lineup so I don't think that's the reason.
I followed his DBPM and it actually improved over the course of the season.. I think a player can be a decent defender and still have bad DFG% although is DFG% is indeed really high this season.
Last year his DFG% was at 46% so I think that him playing with Nurkic out of position might have affected it.
He has decent measurements at 7'3 ws and 9'3 standing reach so his ceiling isn't low in that aspect, but I think him being such a huge part of their offense is a factor and you can never know how a player is going to perform on the defensive end when the playoffs arrive.

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

DRPM is not a good defensive metric.

Players shoot 6% better against Jokic than average, one of the worst marks in the league for players getting regular minutes.

Gives up 1.26 PPP on PnRs, which puts him in the 7th percentile of all players (that's really bad).

Gives up 1.04 PPP on ISOs, which is in the 22.3 percentile of all players.

The only place I can find him being an average defensive player is defending post ups 1-on-1.

He is one of the best young offensive talents in the league, but his defense leaves a lot to be desired...he's got a ways to go to be average there.

How much do you factor in the fact that Denver is a piss poor defensive team as a whole? He isn't a rim protector and both Nelson and Mudiay are terrible on that end and he has no help from either the wings or the PF position.

 

[Andrew]

At this point, karma has to take effect right? God I hope KD or Curry sprain an ankle or break a finger soon.

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

At this point, karma has to take effect right? God I hope KD or Curry sprain an ankle or break a finger soon.

That's it?

 

[Andrew]

That's it?

Karma is tricky, I don't want to wish for a serious injury and nothing or a broken finger happens. You wish for nothing or something little and then poof something big happens.

 

[BimboColesHair]

How much do you factor in the fact that Denver is a piss poor defensive team as a whole? He isn't a rim protector and both Nelson and Mudiay are terrible on that end and he has no help from either the wings or the PF position.

Not much is on them...

But you can't watch Jokic and say "yeah, that's an average defensive player". He's awful on that end. Slow footed and unable to protect the rim is not a good combination in the present day NBA. To be a good defensive big in the NBA today, you have to be able to protect the rim or defend the PnR...if you can't do either, you are a detriment to your team on that end.

But those are individual tracking stats, meant to take out how his teammates effect him on defense, and solely focus on what he is doing on every possession defensively against specific play types.

 

[Rich]

Denver have better talent than Sacramento though.

Gallo, Murray, Mudiay, Barton, Chandler are all better than anything Sacramento have bar Collison and Rudy Gay.

I don't really agree with that. Mudiay and Murray are not better than anything Sacramento has. Mudiay isn't better than a whole lotta people. That's overselling the talent on Denver.

 

[The Red Viper]

I don't really agree with that. Mudiay and Murray are not better than anything Sacramento has. Mudiay isn't better than a whole lotta people. That's overselling the talent on Denver.

I would take Mudiay and Murray over the likes of Ty Lawson, Temple and McLemore etc.

Also, you have to consider the fit. Players like Gallo, Chandler, Barton etc are better complementary players than Rudy Gay, Rajon Rondo, Afflalo etc which is what Boogie has had till now.

Boogie has his issues but that entire franchise is fucked up. He isn't a saint but having a clusterfuck of a management doesn't help.

 

[Jstock12]

How much do you factor in the fact that Denver is a piss poor defensive team as a whole? He isn't a rim protector and both Nelson and Mudiay are terrible on that end and he has no help from either the wings or the PF position.

If @BimboColesHair stats are correct and Jokic gives up 1.26 PPP on PnRs, then it's pretty horrible. Everyone could just spam that PnR at him all game and it would be an equivalent to only shooting threes all game, but at a 1.26/3=42% clip. Same efficiency. For reference, the best 3pt shooting team this season, San Antonio, is shooting at a 40.4% clip on average.

 

[Real Deal]

I'm shleeeeeeep.