Happy 60th Birthday To The GOAT.

[MediumBaller]

Jordan stans have to do some weird mental gymnastics to argue that Jordan’s better than LeBron because he won 6 rings but Bill Russell isn’t better than Jordan despite winning 11 rings.

There’s never been someone better at the game of basketball than LeBron James. Dude’s averaging 29/8/7 on 62% TS in his 19th season and has scored 25+ points in 23 straight games, a career high. Jordan was a retired gambling addict at that point in his career.

 

[PIP]

Jordan

 

[macbdog]

I'll just put this here...

Tracy McGrady, he of a career .430 FG%, says Giannis would have struggled in his era because of a lack of a jumpshot

It's even funnier bc LBJ didn't have a jump shot when he came into the league but he most certainly started dominating in McGradys NBA.

 

[KevinLoveFan]

Jordan stans have to do some weird mental gymnastics to argue that Jordan’s better than LeBron because he won 6 rings but Bill Russell isn’t better than Jordan despite winning 11 rings.

There’s never been someone better at the game of basketball than LeBron James. Dude’s averaging 29/8/7 on 62% TS in his 19th season and has scored 25+ points in 23 straight games, a career high. Jordan was a retired gambling addict at that point in his career.

My mom insisted Russell was the GOAT for that very reason. She also thought LeBron had eclipsed Jordan by the mid 2010s.

But that was just my mom's opinion. Jon Niednagel, scout for Danny Ainge and the Celtics and creator of the Brain Types system (which takes Myers Briggs types into the motor skill and neuroscience realm), said LeBron would never be better than Jordan because LeBron was the ESFP type, same as Magic Johnson, whereas Jordan was ISTP, a more competitive and cerebral type.

Niednagel also has said most fans can't see reality and argue in conceptual circles because most people are the ENTP type. Niednagel differs from Myers Briggs stats in contending that 50% of humanity is ENTP, like literally every other person you meet is the ENTP type. Niednagel said he himself is a true and rare ISTJ, a type more suited to analytically observing and judging reality than ENTP is, so all the ENTP opinions about LeBron being better than Jordan are wrong because they can't observe basketball as well as Niednagel himself can.

You can see why his type system never gained much popularity...

 

[foucault87]

MJ was pretty good but I never saw him dunk and eat a cupcake at once. Can't be the GOAT without that

 

[JJ_PR]

For me it would be hard to decide who's the GOAT. Both have good cases. I'd go with MJ by a hair but LeBron could surpass him if he wins another title along with passing Kareem in the total regular season points. LeBron's durability is unmatched, so he has that going for him as well.

Having said that, whoever comes up with the argument that Bill Russell is better because he has 11 rings doesn't have credibility. You have to take into context certain things. Russell played in a weak era, had a stacked team, etc. Jordan having more rings than LeBron is certainly an important factor in deciding who's the best.

I always wonder why Kobe gets so disrespected in these discussions. He's the closest thing we've seen to Jordan, was an all-star by age 19, & won 5 titles. If we're talking purely basketball, he has to be up there. People try to discredit him because of his off court issue.

 

[2 For The Brew]

For me it would be hard to decide who's the GOAT. Both have good cases. I'd go with MJ by a hair but LeBron could surpass him if he wins another title along with passing Kareem in the total regular season points. LeBron's durability is unmatched, so he has that going for him as well.

Having said that, whoever comes up with the argument that Bill Russell is better because he has 11 rings doesn't have credibility. You have to take into context certain things. Russell played in a weak era, had a stacked team, etc. Jordan having more rings than LeBron is certainly an important factor in deciding who's the best.

I always wonder why Kobe gets so disrespected in these discussions. He's the closest thing we've seen to Jordan, was an all-star by age 19, & won 5 titles. If we're talking purely basketball, he has to be up there. People try to discredit him because of his off court issue.

Wilt Chamberlain was weak? Jerry West and Elgin Baylor were weak?

Oh and that stacked team Russell had missed the playoffs the year before he arrived and the year after he left.

He was also player-coach of the Celtics, the first Black NBA head Coach, and had to battle racist fans and media in Boston. That didn’t stop him from winning two titles as player-coach. The one year he lost as coach of the Celtics he won 60 games but the Sixers won 66 and had a phenomenal year.

What all the Celtics teams with Russell had was tremendous defense, and that was him anchoring.

Maybe Russell isn’t the GOAT but to casually dismiss him is risible imho.

 

[PIP]

For me it would be hard to decide who's the GOAT. Both have good cases. I'd go with MJ by a hair but LeBron could surpass him if he wins another title along with passing Kareem in the total regular season points. LeBron's durability is unmatched, so he has that going for him as well.

Having said that, whoever comes up with the argument that Bill Russell is better because he has 11 rings doesn't have credibility. You have to take into context certain things. Russell played in a weak era, had a stacked team, etc. Jordan having more rings than LeBron is certainly an important factor in deciding who's the best.

I always wonder why Kobe gets so disrespected in these discussions. He's the closest thing we've seen to Jordan, was an all-star by age 19, & won 5 titles. If we're talking purely basketball, he has to be up there. People try to discredit him because of his off court issue.

Kobe gets discredited in large part due to the fact that he’s viewed as the sidekick to Shaq in his first 3 titles…

You can show all the stats you want but he’s pretty much considered to be the secondary star of that duo at their height of dominance.

In addition to having only 1 MVP and only 2 scoring titles..

LeBron has only 1 scoring title 4 MVP’s

Jordan has 10 scoring titles, 5 MVP’s and hell even has a defensive player of the year title….

Think about what Jordan accomplished. Actually remove these 4 seasons — He barely played his 2nd season (85-86) and barely played the season he came back from retirement (94-95)

Remove those 2 Wizards seasons too…

What Jordan accomplished in 11 seasons as a Bull (and one of those was his rookie season) is off the charts.

Of those 11 seasons

Rookie of the year
10 scoring titles
5 MVP’s
6 championships
6 Finals MVP’s

Sensational

 

[2 For The Brew]

Of Russell’s 13 seasons - 13 rings. Won 11 as a player and 2 as a coach.

 

[KilgoreTrout]

No!

Pippen was drafted in 87.

Bulls won 50 games without Pippen starting a single game his rookie year and putting up less than 8pts….

When he became a starter his 2nd year they won less games than Pippen’s rookie year— Horace was still more impactful.

Now when Phil came aboard as head coach in ‘89 Jordan was hitting his prime and Pippen became a starter in his 3rd year, he and Horace became consistent contributors and Cartwright in his 2nd season there found his groove too….

But none of this when Pippen got there the Bulls became good BS —cause it’s a false narrative….Horace Grant had a bigger impact as a rookie & 2nd year player…. Pippen started to out perform him in year 3 (barely) — but that’s when the Bulls started to take off— along with having Phil Jackson begin his journey too….

Ok, so the Bulls got good when they got an elite coach and a REAL second banana hit his prime - two advantages that LeBron never had. Doesn’t change the narrative much.

The Cavs made the Finals in LeBron’s 4th year, with a mediocre coach and supporting cast, entirely because of LeBron. And LeBron had played 3 fewer years of college basketball than Jordan. Jordan was 28, when he made The Finals the first time. LeBron was 22. There’s your GOAT.

 

[PIP]

Ok, so the Bulls got good when they got an elite coach and a REAL second banana hit his prime - two advantages that LeBron never had. Doesn’t change the narrative much.

The Cavs made the Finals in LeBron’s 4th year, with a mediocre coach and supporting cast, entirely because of LeBron. And LeBron had played 3 fewer years of college basketball than Jordan. Jordan was 28, when he made The Finals the first time. LeBron was 22. There’s your GOAT.

Phil wasn’t hired as an elite coach. He was an assistant who took over and in fact his top assistant was the brains behind the operation.

Relax! Nobody said LeBron wasn’t good. I’m aware LeBron got lucky and made the finals and got waxed as a 22 year old. He didn’t make it back there until he left. So it’s a cool little footnote on his career to say he guided a team to the finals that was not ready nor was he…

He really didn’t start to become a winner to around 27 and 28 and that’s about the same as Jordan… I can’t say he’s a goat cause he lost a finals at 22. Cool accomplishment tho.

He’s fantastic. Jordan is just fantastic-er

 

[foucault87]

You know who is actually disrespected in these discussions? Tim Duncan. Dude was an All-NBA player out of the gate and won 4 rings. IMO he should be viewed above guys like Shaq and Wilt. You could even make a close argument with Larry Bird and Kobe. He really should be in the top 7 or so.

 

[KevinLoveFan]

You know who is actually disrespected in these discussions? Tim Duncan. Dude was an All-NBA player out of the gate and won 4 rings. IMO he should be viewed above guys like Shaq and Wilt. You could even make a close argument with Larry Bird and Kobe. He really should be in the top 7 or so.

Duncan is in the top ten. MJ, LeBron, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan are my top ten.

 

[prf100]

Returning this thread to its rightful place: Jordan is GOAT at being poop.

 

[MediumBaller]

Jordan stans have to do some weird mental gymnastics to argue that Jordan’s better than LeBron because he won 6 rings but Bill Russell isn’t better than Jordan despite winning 11 rings.

Having said that, whoever comes up with the argument that Bill Russell is better because he has 11 rings doesn't have credibility. You have to take into context certain things. Russell played in a weak era, had a stacked team, etc. Jordan having more rings than LeBron is certainly an important factor in deciding who's the best.

I always wonder why Kobe gets so disrespected in these discussions. He's the closest thing we've seen to Jordan, was an all-star by age 19, & won 5 titles. If we're talking purely basketball, he has to be up there. People try to discredit him because of his off court issue.

As I was saying…

But Kobe? Cmon lol. That Wal-mart brand Jordan doesn’t belong anywhere near a GOAT conversation.