Kevin Love - Miami Ground Machine

[Cavatt]

FWIW, Love On/Off is -19 right now for the season.

Cavs are +9 with him off the court and -10.7 with him on the court... This is just disgusting.

We are making runs when he is off the court, especially in 4th quarters. We made huge runs the last few games with him off the court in the 4th quarter, does that skew up the numbers?

He always had favourable On/Off numbers. he either regressed significantly or playing C is just a huge minus and needs to change asap. He is killing us right now playing C.

We always talk about using him wrong. He is not a rim protector at all. I'd rather him guard someone in the post then be the last line of defense. He let's guys go right by and he doesn't hold his hands up to contest. He is a 4, but he can play the 5 in a 5 shooters lineup only IMO.

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

He doesn't fit against them. Offensively, he should have been able to take Durant in the post, but he couldn't last year. His 3pt shot isn't nearly consistent enough to offset his terrible fit defensively against the Warriors.
His value will diminish as more and more teams increase their pace and 3pt attempts. More teams look like Golden State playing wise and he is being exposed much more this year.

You can't have your C have -1.9 DBPM if you want to win, you just can't.

Love at the 5 was playable defensively against GS even with Durant. Have no issue with that lineup seeing time. It was the rest of the minutes that were the issue. We definitely need to cut out most of the TT+ Love minutes especially once Zaza is out of the game.

Green and Crowder give us multiple lineup choices that we didn’t have last year that include Green at the 5 and LeBron at the 5. Crowder could even play the 5 defensively against Draymond pretty easily but you’d have to have Green out there matching up with KD.

Green Crowder Bron with JR and IT/Wade IT/ Wade JR/ Korver JR/ Korver Wade could all work. Just wouldn’t do Korver + IT.

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

Love at the 5 was playable defensively against GS even with Durant. Have no issue with that lineup seeing time. It was the rest of the minutes that were the issue. We definitely need to cut out most of the TT+ Love minutes especially once Zaza is out of the game.

Green and Crowder give us multiple lineup choices that we didn’t have last year that include Green at the 5 and LeBron at the 5. Crowder could even play the 5 defensively against Draymond pretty easily but you’d have to have Green out there matching up with KD.

Green Crowder Bron with JR and IT/Wade IT/ Wade JR/ Korver JR/ Korver Wade could all work. Just wouldn’t do Korver + IT.

Crowder at the 5 only has a chance to work with Lebron at the 1 and still, he is just not a good rebounder, shooter, creator off the dribble to make it worthwhile.

 

[fan0283]

Love at the 5 was playable defensively against GS even with Durant. Have no issue with that lineup seeing time. It was the rest of the minutes that were the issue. We definitely need to cut out most of the TT+ Love minutes especially once Zaza is out of the game.

Green and Crowder give us multiple lineup choices that we didn’t have last year that include Green at the 5 and LeBron at the 5. Crowder could even play the 5 defensively against Draymond pretty easily but you’d have to have Green out there matching up with KD.

Green Crowder Bron with JR and IT/Wade IT/ Wade JR/ Korver JR/ Korver Wade could all work. Just wouldn’t do Korver + IT.

Love at the 5 (as a lineup strategy) didn't do too well against GS. Kyrie, JR, Korver, LeBron, Love was our 3rd most used lineup and posted a net rating of (-24.4) making it out worst lineup to play greater than 10 minutes in the finals.

Edit it also posted a DRTG of 118.5 so it was leaking points as well

 

[ACisKING]

He doesn't fit against them. Offensively, he should have been able to take Durant in the post, but he couldn't last year. His 3pt shot isn't nearly consistent enough to offset his terrible fit defensively against the Warriors.
His value will diminish as more and more teams increase their pace and 3pt attempts. More teams look like Golden State playing wise and he is being exposed much more this year.

You can't have your C have -1.9 DBPM if you want to win, you just can't.

Spot on. Kevin Love is an asset against nearly every team. But an unquestioned liability against GSW.

 

[pinoycavsfan]

I feel having a decent defensive center cures all the defensive ills of the cavs and also helps love. We barely see those touchdown passes from love because the cavs cant defend and love is being asked to be the last line of defense.

 

[Nphan]

Love at the 5 was playable defensively against GS even with Durant. Have no issue with that lineup seeing time. It was the rest of the minutes that were the issue. We definitely need to cut out most of the TT+ Love minutes especially once Zaza is out of the game.

Green and Crowder give us multiple lineup choices that we didn’t have last year that include Green at the 5 and LeBron at the 5. Crowder could even play the 5 defensively against Draymond pretty easily but you’d have to have Green out there matching up with KD.

Green Crowder Bron with JR and IT/Wade IT/ Wade JR/ Korver JR/ Korver Wade could all work. Just wouldn’t do Korver + IT.

Yup don't know why people keep blaming Love for the finals when it was TT and the fact that they didn't even need to guard him and he was getting out rebound by Zaza.

 

[Photon]

Yup don't know why people keep blaming Love for the finals when it was TT and the fact that they didn't even need to guard him and he was getting out rebound by Zaza.

Curry outrebounded TT, that was huge disappointment. We did a lot of unforced error last finals.

 

[Rich]

Waiting for someone to offer a better player currently on the roster to start at center right now.

Its easy to complain about, but offer a solution. And if you say start Ante Zizic, slap yourself.

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

Love at the 5 (as a lineup strategy) didn't do too well against GS. Kyrie, JR, Korver, LeBron, Love was our 3rd most used lineup and posted a net rating of (-24.4) making it out worst lineup to play greater than 10 minutes in the finals.

Edit it also posted a DRTG of 118.5 so it was leaking points as well

That’s just one lineup with Love at the 5(and it had Korver in it....works better with more perimeter defenders)...

Love at the 5 murdered teams in the playoffs. This is because everyone’s defensive effort is at 100%. Especially with the added wings we have....it’s going to be even better this year.

Here’s a snapshot of what really happens with the Cavs when Love plays the 5 and we give effort.

Finals with Love at the 5:

70 minutes, 141 possessions, Cavs' ORtg 102.3 Cavs' DRtg 98.7, NET +3.6 per 100 possessions. We defended the Warriors better in those 70 minutes than in any other stretch.
(Credit @priceFTW )


Playoffs with Love at the 5

114 minutes, 230 possessions, Cavs' ORtg 123.2 Cavs' DRtg 100.1, NET +23.1 per 100 possessions

(Credit: @priceFTW )


Playoffs with Love at the 5 sans the Finals

44 minutes, 89 possessions, Cavs' ORtg 156.2 Cavs' DRtg 102.2, NET +54 per 100 possessions


(Credit: @priceFTW )


The biggest concern with Love all season at the 5 is potential fatigue/injury. Cavs need to keep his minutes down until TT comes back to take over the C duties in a couple of weeks. But Love at the 5 is the Cavs “death” lineup and was, IIRC, the only section of minutes in which we managed to outscore GS in the Finals.

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

That’s just one lineup with Love at the 5(and it had Korver in it....works better with more perimeter defenders)...

Love at the 5 murdered teams in the playoffs. This is because everyone’s defensive effort is at 100%. Especially with the added wings we have....it’s going to be even better this year.

Here’s a snapshot of what really happens with the Cavs when Love plays the 5 and we give effort.

Finals with Love at the 5:

70 minutes, 141 possessions, Cavs' ORtg 102.3 Cavs' DRtg 98.7, NET +3.6 per 100 possessions. We defended the Warriors better in those 70 minutes than in any other stretch.
(Credit @priceFTW )


Playoffs with Love at the 5

114 minutes, 230 possessions, Cavs' ORtg 123.2 Cavs' DRtg 100.1, NET +23.1 per 100 possessions

(Credit: @priceFTW )


Playoffs with Love at the 5 sans the Finals

44 minutes, 89 possessions, Cavs' ORtg 156.2 Cavs' DRtg 102.2, NET +54 per 100 possessions


(Credit: @priceFTW )


The biggest concern with Love all season at the 5 is potential fatigue/injury. Cavs need to keep his minutes down until TT comes back to take over the C duties in a couple of weeks. But Love at the 5 is the Cavs “death” lineup and was, IIRC, the only section of minutes in which we managed to outscore GS in the Finals.

It matters what lineup they were up against. OBviously it works better againt non starting PGs and C's. It's all about the matchup and the intensity. It can work in spurts, but it can not work in the regular season.

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

It matters what lineup they were up against. OBviously it works better againt non starting PGs and C's. It's all about the matchup and the intensity. It can work in spurts, but it can not work in the regular season.

That was the Cavs go-to lineup against other teams best lineups. It unleashed playoff LBJ at the 4 which is one of the deadliest things in the NBA. It works very well overall , and not just in spurts.

As for the regular season, I do somewhat agree. The constant effort isn’t there and you play a lot more teams with traditional bigs. You don’t want to have Love hobbled by March. I think TT will start, and come back around the same time IT does. That starting lineup should work well all the way up to the Finals. I would personally change things up in the Finals and never play TT and Love together, but we can cross that bridge when we come to it.

 

[fan0283]

That’s just one lineup with Love at the 5(and it had Korver in it....works better with more perimeter defenders)...

Love at the 5 murdered teams in the playoffs. This is because everyone’s defensive effort is at 100%. Especially with the added wings we have....it’s going to be even better this year.

Here’s a snapshot of what really happens with the Cavs when Love plays the 5 and we give effort.

Finals with Love at the 5:

70 minutes, 141 possessions, Cavs' ORtg 102.3 Cavs' DRtg 98.7, NET +3.6 per 100 possessions. We defended the Warriors better in those 70 minutes than in any other stretch.
(Credit @priceFTW )




(Credit: @priceFTW )


The biggest concern with Love all season at the 5 is potential fatigue/injury. Cavs need to keep his minutes down until TT comes back to take over the C duties in a couple of weeks. But Love at the 5 is the Cavs “death” lineup and was, IIRC, the only section of minutes in which we managed to outscore GS in the Finals.

Think you could get priceftw to send me the link for these finals data with Love at the 5. Nba.com lineup data tells me that our defensive ratings never dropped below a 100 for more than 40 mins through the entire finals, of which Love was only on the floor for 25 of them. How could Love at the 5 lineups then post a DRtg of 98.5 over 70 minutes?

Edit: would encourage everyone to look at the finals lineup data for themselves @ https://stats.nba.com/lineups/advan...fs&TeamID=1610612739&PORound=4&sort=MIN&dir=1

That netrtg looks familiar to a stat I posted a while back

Love on, Thompson off= ORTG 103.6 DRTG 100.1. NETRTG (+3.5)
Love off, Thompson on= ORTG 127.4 DRTG 100.8. NETRTG (+26.6)

Nbawowy seems to be glitching atm so the link to the data has gone down since I made this post. Kevin love+Tristan Thompson lineups were awful in net rating. Love without TT was decent. TT without Love was best

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

Think you could get priceftw to send me the link for these finals data with Love at the 5. Nba.com lineup data tells me that our defensive ratings never dropped below a 100 for more than 40 mins through the entire finals, of which Love was only on the floor for 25 of them. How could Love at the 5 lineups then post a DRtg of 98.5 over 70 minutes?

Edit: would encourage everyone to look at the finals lineup data for themselves @ https://stats.nba.com/lineups/advan...fs&TeamID=1610612739&PORound=4&sort=MIN&dir=1

That netrtg looks familiar to a stat I posted a while back


Nbawowy seems to be glitching atm so the link to the data has gone down since I made this post. Kevin love+Tristan Thompson lineups were awful in net rating. Love without TT was decent. TT without Love was best

Calling @priceFTW ( but I trust his stats 100%...fwiw)

 

[fan0283]

Calling @priceFTW ( but I trust his stats 100%...fwiw)

He may just have used a methodology I'm overlooking in compiling those. I'm sure they're good stats in some way or form.