Kevin Love - Miami Ground Machine

[priceFTW]

At some point somebody finally realize that the Cavs are either incapable of physically icing the PnR properly or were flat out unwilling. Was a disaster every time.




Definitely a fact. And the players have wondered the same thing at times.

Lue adheres to Thibodeau’s philosophy on ICEing the p&r as he believes it allows the defense to exert more control over a defense’s impact on the offense. This is probably why he wants to do it even though nobody puts in the effort or pays attention to details and adjusts.

This team has had shitty defensive personnel to execute it well. This isn’t the 2008 Celtics with KG, Rondo, Posey, Tony Allen, etc. If you don’t have great personnel, then you have to have exerted great effort and attention to detail and, well, we’re not going to see that in the regular season.

This might be a better way to go right now although I’m sure Lue wants to ICE in the playoffs so don’t know what to do there.

 

[Photon]

we had him under contract. What's he going to do, waste two years of his prime deliberately playing badly or refusing to play? We didn't play hardball with him, or with the Celtics really.

anyway, water under the bridge now.

Hardballing anyone is a thing of past. Media, social media and various back channels for EVERYONE. It all comes out, GMs and teams can fck themselves over in no time.

It was the right thing to do and no way to rate it low before IT shows what he can bring and/or where that pick ends.

Allstar IT and top3 pick would look amazing. 80% IT and top 5 would look very good. Anything inside that is just great. (Don’t forget, Jae is still adapting and Z developing.)

I am sure it will be a nice thing when LeBron is done beating KI that one of the guys with that pick will carry on... With Cedi eating up KI on defense.

Cavs could be the wall that stops KI to ever get back to the finals... let’s say LeBron has 3/4 years more in that time Ayton/Bamba develop and old ass LeBron and him are just enough to nuke Celts out for the 3/4 more years. That puts KI well over 30 and he said himself he doesn’t feel like playing too long. That is a great outlook for me.

 

[TitleTown]

Cavs could be the wall that stops KI to ever get back to the finals... let’s say LeBron has 3/4 years more in that time Ayton/Bamba develop and old ass LeBron and him are just enough to nuke Celts out for the 3/4 more years. That puts KI well over 30 and he said himself he doesn’t feel like playing too long. That is a great outlook for me.

Kyrie requesting the trade should go a long ways toward keeping LBJ here.

Because if LBJ leaves for the Western conference (and I don't think there's anyway that he does), Kyrie will be king of the East. There's just no way that LeBron wants to let that happen because it would justify all the negative story lines around this situation.

As long as we can use our assets to keep a winning team around LBJ (which, by "winning," I mean a team that is clearly the best in the East, with a shot at competing in the finals) then I think LBJ will more than likely stay and retire in Cleveland.

 

[SanduskyCav]

Love completely outplayed Howard all game long.

As expected, this thread is crickets about it as it's going on.

Maybe @Mavaliersfan or @SanduskyCav can try to claim Frye was the real reason Howard had his ass handed to him, though.

Actually buddy I said Love was having a good year this season besides a couple of duds. My comments were in relation to the 2016 playoffs. He was assertive and attacked tonight like I said he needs to, didn’t play one of his games where he just catches and shoots all night long. However, he was the only negative +/- player on the floor all night for the Cavs, so thats not a good look.

 

[MrX]

Actually buddy I said Love was having a good year this season besides a couple of duds. My comments were in relation to the 2016 playoffs. He was assertive and attacked tonight like I said he needs to, didn’t play one of his games where he just catches and shoots all night long. However, he was the only negative +/- player on the floor all night for the Cavs, so thats not a good look.

You mention his 2016 finals as a negative and then use his plus minus from last night against him. I'm not starting a debate but find it ironic because Love was +19 in game 7 2016 finals. Played on the road against 73-9 team with nearly all his 30 mins played with LeBron who was +4 and had the stop.

I guess my point is you can contribute even if your shot isn't dropping. He had 14rebs in the biggest game in Cavs history as well

 

[fan0283]

Actually buddy I said Love was having a good year this season besides a couple of duds. My comments were in relation to the 2016 playoffs. He was assertive and attacked tonight like I said he needs to, didn’t play one of his games where he just catches and shoots all night long. However, he was the only negative +/- player on the floor all night for the Cavs, so thats not a good look.

I posted something about plus minus in response to that guy that said Love came up huge for having the highest plus minus in game 7. It got deleted so I'll repost. Plus minus is a correlation stat and they say correlation doesn't imply causation. Just because you were on the floor when good things happened doesn't mean you were responsible for it, engineered it or even contributed to it.

Ditto for when bad things happen. It doesnt actually mean you were the best/worst player on the floor. It's the one stat that could mean absolutely nothing. It can't stand on its own as evidence of a good or bad game

 

[Cassity14]

Actually buddy I said Love was having a good year this season besides a couple of duds. My comments were in relation to the 2016 playoffs. He was assertive and attacked tonight like I said he needs to, didn’t play one of his games where he just catches and shoots all night long. However, he was the only negative +/- player on the floor all night for the Cavs, so thats not a good look.

@MrX beat me to it. You can't cherry pick stats to convey your own narrative. Love was also a team high +/- in the game you said he did nothing special in yesterday.

I'm not sure if you have a personal issue with him or know something we don't, but I just don't understand the anit-Love crusade you've been on seemingly since he got here.

 

[MrX]

I posted something about plus minus in response to that guy that said Love came up huge for having the highest plus minus in game 7. It got deleted so I'll repost. Plus minus is a correlation stat and they say correlation doesn't imply causation. Just because you were on the floor when good things happened doesn't mean you were responsible for it, engineered it or even contributed to it.

Ditto for when bad things happen. It doesnt actually mean you were the best/worst player on the floor. It's the one stat that could mean everything and also mean nothing. It can't stand on its own as evidence of a good or bad game

It means something when your best player, future hall of fame, greatest player on the planet is +4 and Love is +19

It's not a knock on LeBron but a compliment on how love can help him. It could be him shooting 42% from 3 going into the finals. Demanding so much attention behind the arc. Giving two very Iso dominant scorers room. You can shut him down from 3 but if you are you can't be inside the paint.

There is not to many players who can reb double digits, hit 3s and pass like him. Look at LeBron's shooting during the 2014-15 playoffs without Love and look at LeBron's shooting during the 2015-16 playoffs and get back with me

 

[fan0283]

It means something when your best player, future hall of fame, greatest player on the planet is +4 and Love is +19

It's not a knock on LeBron but a compliment on how love can help him. It could be him shooting 42% from 3 going into the finals. Demanding so much attention behind the arc. Giving two very Iso dominant scorers room. You can shut him down from 3 but if you are you can't be inside the paint.

There is not to many players who can reb double digits, hit 3s and pass like him. Look at LeBron's shooting during the 2014-15 playoffs without Love and look at LeBron's shooting during the 2015-16 playoffs and get back with me

I get the feeling this is going to end with us having to agree to disagree but Love having a higher plus minus than LeBron tells us what we need to know about how inaccurate it can look in measuring player impact. BTW I made that post in response to that poster saying Love's negative plus minus last night meant he played bad. If you agree that Love balled last night, how can you disagree on plus minus being a non-trustworthy measure of a player's in-game value?

I agree with the rest of what you said on Love being a good offensive contributor and rebounder. I just disagree with using single game plus minus to prove it. Poor use of stats will only reduce the credibility of advanced stats in the long run

 

[MrX]

I get the feeling this is going to end with us having to agree to disagree but Love having a higher plus minus than LeBron tells us what we need to know about how inaccurate it can look in measuring player impact. BTW I made that post in response to that poster saying Love's negative plus minus last night meant he played bad. If you agree that Love balled last night, how can you disagree on plus minus being a non-trustworthy measure of a player's in-game value?

I agree with the rest of what you said on Love being a good offensive contributor and rebounder. I just disagree with using single game plus minus to prove it. Poor use of stats will only reduce the credibility of advanced stats in the long run

Fair enough. We don't fully disagree. I look at plus minus use on game to game base.

It could mean last night love defensively was bad. It could mean that multiple different line-ups under performed with him on court. There was 84 mins used from the bench. Its hard to say without breaking down the game play by play why he is the only one in the negative

In game 7 the starters played most of the game. Its easier to see what line-up was successful and what wasn't.

LeBron played 47mins Kyrie played 43mins JR played 39min TT played 32mins

Only 3 players come off the bench and one was Mo who only played 5 mins.

Shump and RJ the other two.

Obviously if all the starters played 48mins their plus minus would be the same. I just find it significant that limited mins replacing starters could have such a reversal in performance. Not to mention Love's lowest statistical game 5 that he also managed team high +15

To your point though yes it's not the tell all statistic. It takes some thinking and game analyzing to even try to put any face value on it. Bottom line is plus means the player had success with someone

 

[Photon]

Stats are useful, when you include them with watching the action. LeBron can have the same stats as some scrub and he is still LeBron, even if stats would be based on full season and providing the said no name is the same (statistically).

Same goes for Love, you do not dare him to tear you a new one on offense, because he will, even if long term stats show he is not as dangerous as XY. The luxury of star role players. And teams cover him from post ups to the 3pt line.

On Defense, when Jae, LeBron, JR (shump??) or Wade play lockdown d and with effort, he will be just fine, but that is reserved for Playoffs.

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

FWIW, Love On/Off is -19 right now for the season.

Cavs are +9 with him off the court and -10.7 with him on the court... This is just disgusting.

We are making runs when he is off the court, especially in 4th quarters. We made huge runs the last few games with him off the court in the 4th quarter, does that skew up the numbers?

He always had favourable On/Off numbers. he either regressed significantly or playing C is just a huge minus and needs to change asap. He is killing us right now playing C.

 

[fan0283]

Stats are useful, when you include them with watching the action. LeBron can have the same stats as some scrub and he is still LeBron, even if stats would be based on full season and providing the said no name is the same (statistically).

Same goes for Love, you do not dare him to tear you a new one on offense, because he will, even if long term stats show he is not as dangerous as XY. The luxury of star role players. And teams cover him from post ups to the 3pt line.

On Defense, when Jae, LeBron, JR (shump??) or Wade play lockdown d and with effort, he will be just fine, but that is reserved for Playoffs.

Speaking of the playoffs, if we meet GS in the finals, are we still supposed to trap pick and rolls he's involved in?

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

Speaking of the playoffs, if we meet GS in the finals, are we still supposed to trap pick and rolls he's involved in?

He doesn't fit against them. Offensively, he should have been able to take Durant in the post, but he couldn't last year. His 3pt shot isn't nearly consistent enough to offset his terrible fit defensively against the Warriors.
His value will diminish as more and more teams increase their pace and 3pt attempts. More teams look like Golden State playing wise and he is being exposed much more this year.

You can't have your C have -1.9 DBPM if you want to win, you just can't.

 

[Mavaliersfan]

He doesn't fit against them. Offensively, he should have been able to take Durant in the post, but he couldn't last year. His 3pt shot isn't nearly consistent enough to offset his terrible fit defensively against the Warriors.
His value will diminish as more and more teams increase their pace and 3pt attempts. More teams look like Golden State playing wise and he is being exposed much more this year.

You can't have your C have -1.9 DBPM if you want to win, you just can't.

What he said!!!