Kyrie Irving

[brownsbuck6]

We're getting caught up in minutiae of this anyway with that sort of rundown. Just watch the game and use your eyeballs. He froze out his teammates, he made some awful decisions, and he was lacking some serious effort on the defensive end. Then in the second OT he got real hot (which was surely fun to watch) and allowed some folks to excuse his poor shot choices and selfishness. That's the bottom line.

 

[KI4MVP]

I can distinctly remember two without even trying- he dribbled twice into the corner where he got trapped and at least one of those times turned into a turnover (another he called timeout), and he dribbled the ball off his foot late in one of the overtimes. There is no way 1 turnover is correct.

those turnovers were both before the last 13 minutes. He cleaned that up.

 

[KI4MVP]

That's great. I watched the game. You know what I saw?

3:48 91-92 Kyrie Irving out of bounds lost ball turnover - Iso Ball - 0 points
3:20 91-92 Kyrie Irving lost ball turnover (Paul Millsap steals) - Iso Ball - 0 points
2:55 91-94 Matthew Dellavedova makes 6-foot two point shot (Anderson Varejao assists) - Ball Movement - 2 points
2:25 91-95 Tristan Thompson makes free throw 1 of 2
2:25 91-95 Tristan Thompson misses free throw 2 of 2 - Ball Movement - 1 point
2:23 91-95 Matthew Dellavedova bad pass (Shelvin Mack steals) - Ball Movement - 0 points
1:52 93-95 Kyrie Irving misses driving layup - Iso Ball - 0 points
1:28 93-95 Matthew Dellavedova steps out of bounds turnover - Ball Movement - 0 points
0:39 95-95 Kyrie Irving misses 26-foot three point jumper - Iso Ball - 0 points
0:26 95-95 Kyrie Irving misses driving layup - Iso Ball - 0 points
0:24 95-95 Anderson Varejao misses tip shot
0:00 95-95 Anderson Varejao misses 26-foot three point jumper

Ball Movement - 3 points in 4 possessions.
Iso Ball - 0 points in 5 possessions.

You tell me what was more effective.

of course you leave off the 5 out of 7 possessions we just before that with Kyrie dominating the ball.

7:50 81-82 Tristan Thompson makes two point shot (Kyrie Irving assists)
7:28 81-82 Kyrie Irving out of bounds lost ball turnover
7:11 81-84 Dion Waiters makes layup (Kyrie Irving assists)
6:43 81-86 Kyrie Irving makes 17-foot jumper
6:11 81-88 Kyrie Irving makes driving layup
5:41 83-90 Kyrie Irving makes driving layup
5:07 86-90 Kyrie Irving misses 3-foot jumper

10 points in 7 possessions.

Kyrie is our superstar, the tighter the game, the more he's going to get the ball. We aren't going to send him to the corner as a decoy like the Heat did with LeBron in their first finals when they lost. We are going to put the ball in his hands and ask him to make a play.

 

[OptimusPrime]

of course you leave off the 5 out of 7 possessions we just before that with Kyrie dominating the ball.

7:50 81-82 Tristan Thompson makes two point shot (Kyrie Irving assists)
7:28 81-82 Kyrie Irving out of bounds lost ball turnover
7:11 81-84 Dion Waiters makes layup (Kyrie Irving assists)
6:43 81-86 Kyrie Irving makes 17-foot jumper
6:11 81-88 Kyrie Irving makes driving layup
5:41 83-90 Kyrie Irving makes driving layup
5:07 86-90 Kyrie Irving misses 3-foot jumper

10 points in 7 possessions.

Kyrie is our superstar, the tighter the game, the more he's going to get the ball. We aren't going to send him to the corner as a decoy like the Heat did with LeBron in their first finals. We are going to put the ball in his hands and ask him to make a play.

I left them out because the ball was still moving most of that stretch. He didn't just dribble the ball and freeze out everyone else. Kyrie and the whole offense looked good when the ball was moving.

 

[KI4MVP]

While he started the season slow, in December Kyrie is playing at superstar level with a PER of 23.93 while scoring 24.5 ppg and getting 6.4 assists, all are the 2nd best month of his career. His turnover % is also the 2nd best month of his career. Had he played this way the whole season he'd be 5th in the league in scoring and 9th in PER.

In an increasingly position-less league, people worry way too much about a players position label. For example, why does it matter that Kyrie is labeled PG while LeBron is labeled PF? Kyrie certainly isn't playing PG every minute he's on the court. On a per 36 minute basis, other than rebounding Kyrie's numbers this in his first 3 seasons look pretty close to LeBron's first 3 season numbers.

Kyrie: 22.7 points, 6.3 assists, 1.4 steals, TS% .549, usage 29.9%
LeBron: 23.0 points, 5.7 assists, 1.6 steals, TS% .540, usage 30.6%

And Kyrie has been a heck of a lot better in the clutch.

http://bkref.com/tiny/3xF52

There aren't many players even capable of doing what Kyrie did in overtime last night. 16 points, 3 assists, a steal and 1 turnover in crunch time when everyone in the arena knows you're getting the ball. There can't be more than 5 other players in the league capable of that kind of efficiency in that situation, perhaps not even that many. And how many of those could do that at age 21?

We have a player who can be one of the all time greats, people want to turn him into Mo Cheeks (Nothing against Mo).

edit to add:

Kyrie Irving crunch time scoring (last 5 minutes of the game, neither team ahead by more than 5 points)

11-12: 56.4 points per 48 minutes (led the league)
12-13: 52.6 points per 48 minutes (led the league)
13-14: 47.4 points per 48 minutes (I think Harden is leading the league right now at 51.1 points)

We have perhaps the best crunch time scorer in the league. Of course we go to him in crunch time.

 

[mrbeaks]

Watching KI v. Teague last night was interesting in that you had a player with superstar offensive talent going against a guy who's had to bust ass to become the third best player on his team. Yes, Teague has improved every year, but it's been a game-to-game struggle. He's had his minutes curtailed due to ineffectiveness, surrendered touches to guys like Lou Williams and Devin Harris and even lost his starting job on occasion. Every time he had a breakthrough game, he'd follow it up with a clunker or two. But he's gradually improved every facet of his game, and, five seasons in, he's a top-ten PG in the NBA.

What frustrated me most about last night's game was contrasting Teague's dogged effort with Kyrie's my-offense-is-my-defense style of play. I couldn't enjoy KI's scoring display at any point because, as has been the case all season, I knew he was going to give most of it back on the other end. Down the stretch, I thought the Hawks would exploit Brown's three-guard lineup with plentiful kick-outs to Korver (who was being gently checked by Jarrett Jack). But Teague generally had his way with Kyrie. Add in Kyrie's brain farts on offense (dribbling into the corner, jacking up deep threes early in the shot clock, inexplicably coughing up the ball at the end of the second OT), and I can't take much pleasure in his statistical efficiency last night.

As much as I loved watching Kyrie his first two years in the league, this season has been a chore, and I worry that this stagnation (I'll save "regression" for the end of the season if it's warranted) is due to the fact that he's never had to really work for his playing time. I'd hate to see him become one of those players who falls back on innate skill and never fully develops, but he's giving us ample reason to worry this might be the case. And that's why some fans are intensely critical of him: he can and should be so much better than this.

 

[Cassity14]

You can't consistently win close games in the final minutes when only one player touches the ball on a given possession. Why is it so hard to understand that Kyrie can take a lot of shots AND other people can get touches at the same time? That's called flow. If the flow of the offense allows Kyrie to get good looks in rhythm, that's great.

Am I irrational for wanting to see Dion or Tristan at least touch the ball in the final 15 minutes of a game? I guess so. It's apparently also irrational to want Kyrie to show some defensive effort. He has no business being lit up by Jeff Teague, Kemba Walker, etc. That's bullshit. He doesn't bring it on that end of the floor, period. The team defense looks horrendous because Kyrie's man gets to the rim at will. Show me any team that plans its defense around the point guard getting torched every time down the court and is successful. If Kyrie could learn how to stay in front of anyone at all ever, the defense would look better. Until then, we're going to see plenty of open 3s. Yes, some of that is Kyrie's fault.

Kyrie is a ballhog in clutch time right now. Last night he was not efficient. He was 6/16 from the 5 minute mark onward. That's clutch time. 6/16 isn't efficient. He only got to 6/16 because he got hot in the second overtime. Take away the 2nd OT and he was 1/10 from the last 5 minutes of regulation through the first overtime. He wasn't missing bunnies. But he got hot in the 2nd ot so magically he played well? I don't buy that.

Kyrie played fantastic until this time of the game. The problem is that a lot of guys did. Thompson was finishing inside, Dion played fantastic, and Andy's jumper was so wet because he had hit like 3 in a row.

Kyrie's play at the end of the game killed all of these things. I was shocked to see Thompson make either of those shots in overtime. Dion's 3 never had a chance because he had no legs. This team is meant to thrive on flow and right now Kyrie kills flow at the end of games. Just because he makes some of the shots doesn't excuse this; it's a team game. Jeff Teague didn't kill his team's flow last night.

I love Kyrie. I think Kyrie is going to be a fantastic player in this league for a long time. Why does criticizing him mean I want to turn him into Mo Cheeks? I just want him to run his team like most successful 'superstars' AND point guards do. Right now he isn't at the end of close games.

 

[KI4MVP]

Watching KI v. Teague last night was interesting in that you had a player with superstar offensive talent going against a guy who's had to bust ass to become the third best player on his team. Yes, Teague has improved every year, but it's been a game-to-game struggle. He's had his minutes curtailed due to ineffectiveness, surrendered touches to guys like Lou Williams and Devin Harris and even lost his starting job on occasion. Every time he had a breakthrough game, he'd follow it up with a clunker or two. But he's gradually improved every facet of his game, and, five seasons in, he's a top-ten PG in the NBA.

What frustrated me most about last night's game was contrasting Teague's dogged effort with Kyrie's my-offense-is-my-defense style of play. I couldn't enjoy KI's scoring display at any point because, as has been the case all season, I knew he was going to give most of it back on the other end. Down the stretch, I thought the Hawks would exploit Brown's three-guard lineup with plentiful kick-outs to Korver (who was being gently checked by Jarrett Jack). But Teague generally had his way with Kyrie. Add in Kyrie's brain farts on offense (dribbling into the corner, jacking up deep threes early in the shot clock, inexplicably coughing up the ball at the end of the second OT), and I can't take much pleasure in his statistical efficiency last night.

As much as I loved watching Kyrie his first two years in the league, this season has been a chore, and I worry that this stagnation (I'll save "regression" for the end of the season if it's warranted) is due to the fact that he's never had to really work for his playing time. I'd hate to see him become one of those players who falls back on innate skill and never fully develops, but he's giving us ample reason to worry this might be the case. And that's why some fans are intensely critical of him: he can and should be so much better than this.

You're commending Teague for holding Kyrie to 40 points?

 

[MoFlo]

Kyrie is our superstar, the tighter the game, the more he's going to get the ball. We aren't going to send him to the corner as a decoy like the Heat did with LeBron in their first finals when they lost. We are going to put the ball in his hands and ask him to make a play.

Which is why he should be held to a higher standard & we should expect more out of him, no?

Where did anyone say to use him as a decoy or to completely take the ball out of his hands? But there's a huge difference between having the ball more and keeping the ball in your hands for entire possessions at a time. Then we wonder why nobody's moving off the ball...

Legit question that I haven't seen anyone who's been doing it answer:

Why is Kyrie immune to criticism by some here?

Nobody reputable is saying he sucks or that he should be traded, just that he has an awful tendency to do everything himself at the end of games. I really don't know how you can watch the games & not see that.

 

[KI4MVP]

Which is why he should be held to a higher standard & we should expect more out of him, no?

Where did anyone say to use him as a decoy or to completely take the ball out of his hands? But there's a huge difference between having the ball more and keeping the ball in your hands for entire possessions at a time. Then we wonder why nobody's moving off the ball...

Legit question that I haven't seen anyone who's been doing it answer:

Why is Kyrie immune to criticism by some here?

Nobody reputable is saying he sucks or that he should be traded, just that he has an awful tendency to do everything himself at the end of games. I really don't know how you can watch the games & not see that.

I'm saying the issue is being way overblown because most of the time he's taking good, high percentage shots.

He got ripped constantly for "all of the the turnovers in overtime" when reality he only had 1. He got ripped for not passing in overtime, he had 3 assists, and a few other plays were the player missed the shot when he passed. He got ripped for attacking the rim, taking uncontested pull up jumpers and wide open 3 pointers. In isolation or running the offense, those are the shots we want.

Teague couldn't stay in front of him, Kyrie could blow by him at will, people on here are praising Teague's defense.

I know one thing, next time we're in that situation, I'm not even going to read the game thread because last night the excessive complaining ruined a fantastic game.

When we had LeBron we had the same complaints about LeIso in crunch time, yet our running it then was the most efficient crunch time offense in the league by a mile. The more years we ran it, the better we got at it. We went from an clutch time offensive efficiency of 95.6 points per 100 possessions his 2nd season to an offensive efficiency of 126.1 his 6th season. Even at an absurd efficiency of 126.1, people constantly complained about LeIso. Sometimes you need to look at the stats and see if a players talent changes your preconceived notions of the right way to play.

 

[mrbeaks]

You're commending Teague for holding Kyrie to 40 points?

Sorry. Kyrie is a complete player. Steph Curry with Gary Payton's defensive prowess. Carry on.

 

[Cavatt]

Which is why he should be held to a higher standard & we should expect more out of him, no?

Where did anyone say to use him as a decoy or to completely take the ball out of his hands? But there's a huge difference between having the ball more and keeping the ball in your hands for entire possessions at a time. Then we wonder why nobody's moving off the ball...

Legit question that I haven't seen anyone who's been doing it answer:

Why is Kyrie immune to criticism by some here?

Nobody reputable is saying he sucks or that he should be traded, just that he has an awful tendency to do everything himself at the end of games. I really don't know how you can watch the games & not see that.

I think you have to use him as a decoy because it works every time he does it. The other game where they won on the AV layup it was Kyrie using himself as a decoy. It is awesome when he scores in transition, hits a few jumpers and then draws the defense. It is the next step where he doesn't pass out of the trap, or dribbles and dribbles while 3 guys are draped on him that is infuriating. The point of getting white hot is get people to overplay you, so you can score easy buckets. He doesn't have to pass every time. It is about basketball decision making. Make the right play.

 

[chuck0609]

Kyrie had Dion out there with him, and they (Kyrie mostly) need to learn to play off and with each other. The offense was stagnant the end of the fourth and into overtime. Can you imagine if these two would tag team teams instead of playing iso 6'2 Kyrie against 7 footers basketball?

Im a fan of Kyrie, but this team isnt going anywhere until he learns how to play within a system. Until then its Iverson-like basketball; fun to watch, never seriously contending for a championship.

 

[Dr. Claw]

I'm withholding any comment on Kyrie from this point forward until Mike Brown learns what kind of game is being played in the NBA. If he can drop 39-40 points in regulation, I don't see him as the issue.

 

[OptimusPrime]

I'm withholding any comment on Kyrie from this point forward until Mike Brown learns what kind of game is being played in the NBA. If he can drop 39-40 points in regulation, I don't see him as the issue.

When did he do that?