I'm in the boat of if Lebron leaves cool or if he stay that's great but seeing Lebron and savannah at that private high school got me nervous as hell lol. Bron won us a ring so I wouldn't be pissed but we got a great ass team right now especially if we use the pick on another superstar and I don't want to mess up this team right now.
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LeBron James
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jon connor
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Probably the dumbest myth people use to downplay LeBron lol. What fits around LeBron is basically what fits around any wing superstar. Why on earth would Kyrie not thrive being surrounded by shooters with the ball in his hands?
Bring that shit to Insidehoops bro
OptimusPrime
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Because having shooters around you does you no good if the defense knows that you aren't going to pass them the ball.
1. I was under the impression that he already enrolled his kids in an LA boarding school - see page 1336? Note also BillMac91's post about S&T - would his NTC still be intact, since, at least according to leaks this summer, he will not waive it during this season under any circumstance?
Keep in mind that there had been similar rumblings about family in 2014 in the run-up to LeComeback; I remember them on 92.3.
2. If this isn't true that he enrolled them already, it would make more sense, because all signs are that he and Sav have from LBJJr's first day been very insistent on having their kids live as close to normal lives as possible, rather than sending them away to fancy out-of-state boarding schools - i.e. their neighbors in Bath are in merely upper-middle-class houses in an ungated community, and they have been excruciatingly careful about keeping them out of the spotlight. As we also saw at the parade, Sav isn't afraid to discipline them like a non-spoiling parent.
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MarkPriceFan
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Mavaliersfan
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Exactly, Kyrie can shoot the ball himself. Bron doesn't trust his jumper, which is what has always separated him from other wing superstars. What fit around Kobe, Wade (in his prime), Jordan, Bird etc. was length and other versatile/ 2-way players that were more than spot-up shooters.
Kobe - Gasol, Odom, Bynum, Ariza, Artest
Wade - Mourning, Shaq, Posey, Haslem, Payton
Jordan - Pippen, Rodman, Longley, Harper
Bird - McHale, Parish, Maxwell, Johnson
Tyrone Slothrop
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Because passing is whack, yo! In reality, there is none.
Cassity14
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I'm just curious as to what this upgrade looks like, and how it's acquired by moving Love.
You've still given me nothing in that regard, and resort to unsupported arguments and claiming things that may have been true in 2015.
Before you criticize the validity of statistics, I recommend studying how they are derived. What you're saying "wouldn't show up," actually would, and it didn't.
I understand that not even LeBron was able to do a good enough job on Durant last finals. That's my exact point. KD's offensive explosion had next to nothing to do with Love, and it was the primary reason the Cavs couldn't keep up in the series.
To put it more plainly, Love's defense had nothing to do with the Warriors offensive success in the last finals.
ACisKING
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First of all James is a much better shooter than Wade from anywhere, and a better three point shooter than Kobe or Jordan. But the more important flaw in your analysis is that you are comparing teams that won before the spacing era that started this decade to the older eras where the value of the three pointer was not acknowledged. Just look at all the championships since the Mavs won in 2011...all the winners were amongst the best three point shooting teams in the league, both in terms of frequency and in terms of accuracy.
Two of the examples you cited are during the days of illegal defense rule where guys didn't even have to shoot well to have a degree of gravity. By virtue of standing on the three point line, someone would have to guard non-shooters until Michael or Bird caught the ball, giving them more initial space than any star would have today if he wasn't surrounded by shooters. If you put non-shooters around any modern star, the paint would be clogged and the defense could shade towards them before the catch.
If you put LeBron on any of the rosters of the teams you mentioned above in place of the respective stars of those teams, the teams probably still would have won it all in those years. Are you really trying to argue that LeBron couldn't beat the Magic or the Celtics in 2009/2010 with the likes of Gasol, Odom, Bynum, etc. instead of Mo Williams and the corpse of Big Z? But none of those rosters you mention above are ideally suited to face teams like the 2014 Spurs or especially the current Warriors squad who are perfectly content to trade twos for threes. So the reality is that modern basketball requires a team of floor spacers around LeBron...and also around every other great star who wants to win a championship. That's not some flaw inherent to LeBron...that's just the reality of the NBA.
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I've taken a look at it in the past and the flaws were several;
-Many of the variables used to calculate it are estimates because they can't be derived from the boxscores. Eg it assumes that every player uses an equal amount of defensive possessions. Because there is no stat to capture some of the variables, the best they can do is take the team's defensive stats when said player was on the floor and divide by 5. This is an obvious flaw because it has become a common strategy for teams in the playoffs to target specific players in the pick and roll over and over and over again. It also doesn't have any provisions for time spent as the secondary defender which is a common instance every big finds himself.
Not to talk about all the contextual factors on defense like who had the tougher primary assignment. It gives a disproportionate edge to boxscores stats like blocks, steals and rebounds. As those are ascertainable they don't have to be divided by 5 so an average defender who does well in those categories could rank high on his team's defrtg (because he gets equal credit for the team's stops regardless whether he was involved in the play) plus near full credit for his personal boxscores stats. You begin to see red flags when a guy like Love has a higher defensive rating than LeBron James and Tristan thompson
Yes personal boxscores like rebounding are important but it assumes every rebound is equal when they are not. 50% of Draymond Greens rebounds in the finals were contested while 35% of Durant and Love's rebounds were contested (need to doublecheck this). The defrtg formula has no provision to take cognizance of this.
Imo a players defrtg is at best a correlation stat but they say correlation doesn't imply causation. It's still very far off from being an accurate measure of individual defensive ability and absolutely needs to be combined with watching games to avoid dodgy conclusions. The data needed to guarantee it's accuracy for each individual player doesn't yet exist in today's boxscore
I hear synergy stats are better but I havent taken a look yet
Edit: PG for Love was an upgrade we explored but you'll probably say it never happened too.
Secondly who said Love was why we lost or why KD exploded? Saying we should upgrade from IT and Love to better fitting pieces to match the warriors isn't the same as saying Love is why we lost. How did you interpret that?
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Cassity14
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But have you looked at the stats for plays that "target" Kevin Love? The points per possession on plays in which Love is involved in a pick and roll are better than Thompson's were.
The eye test, by pretty much all accounts around here last year, confirms that Love has become a good enough defender to stay on the court. His quickness improved, and despite limited athleticism, he at least challenged shots in the paint.
I'm not sure what you mean regarding rebounds. An un-contested rebound still ends a defensive position. Love being quality rebounding position should not be viewed as negative thing. Guys not challenging Love on the glass because they know how strong the Cavs are in transition is not a negative thing.
If you're trying to argue that Green was somehow a better rebounder in the finals than Love, you've totally lost me.
The Warriors did the bulk of their damage via Durant, and AGAIN, Love was not involved in that. They certainly tried to attack him in the pick and roll, but it wasn't as successful as it had been in the past, causing them to play even more through Durant.
We'll agree to disagree at this point, and I'll continue waiting on what that 'upgrade' to Love is and how the Cavs will manage to get him.
I've answered this several times yet you keep repeating it.
My position is that we should explore upgrade opportunities if they become available. You do understand that the "if they become available" part was put there for a reason right? PG was available but it didnt materialise but nobody knows who will be available between now and the trade deadline. Asking me to namedrop who will be available between now and February is ridiculous
Edit: will address the rest of the post later but I may just settle at agreeing to disagree
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-Nope I haven't seen their pick and roll stats but I'm starting to think you quote these stats without understanding them yourself. Thompson wasn't exactly a world class defender in that series. We used switches when TT was in the pick and roll so it wouldn't come as a surprise if he's pnr numbers were worse than Love. When Love was involved in the pnr we trapped because we knew he couldn't switch. This trapping was used to carve open up our defense and make the lane even wider for guys like KD. The stats would say it was someone else's man that scored but won't tell us that it was the trapping that created the opening. If you only look at stats without understanding defensive schemes then you won't be able to comprehend this. This is why an upgrade will be suitable, you can't be trapping player A when player B is Kevin Durant.
-Yes Love has improved his defense. No one is saying he hasn't
- Uncontested rebounds should have way less value in a formula calculating defensive ability. Saying otherwise makes you sound like a box score watcher. The Defrtg formula doesn't account for this. Statisticians have even begun tracking stats to differentiate them. You're following the status quo without realising that it only exists as a matter of convenience. This among other things I mentioned adds to its inaccuracy as a defensive metric
-Uh I don't care to argue who was a better overall rebounder since only defensive rebounds are relevant to calculating defrtg but if player a averages 11.2 rebounds per game with 35% being contested and player B averages 10.2 with 50percent being contested, anyone is certainly entitled to have a difference of opinion on who did better.
Edit: asking to upgrade IT and Love isn't about those players being bad, it's about Golden state being so good that you need to have fully switchable lineups to keep up with them. Yet people continue to take offense because you suggest to trade their favourite players
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exactly...every wing has basically the same mix of shooters, big men and 3 and d guys. The biggest factor is how versatile they are on offense and how good are they as two way players
1. mobile big men and if you don't have a low post player
2. stretch 4's
3. 3 and d players
4. shooters
very few teams in the modern NBA have low post playing big men so most aren't that different from the current/last 3 years of the cavs in structure. This myth about lebron needing shooters like all the greats didn't have snipers on their teams