Racial Tension in the U.S.

[Nathan S]

I'm yet to hear anything reasonable about me being so privileged because of my ethnicity. Maybe i'm just not and my privilege comes from being an American living in the 21st century?

Is that not reasonable to ask for examples? Or should we all just take it at face value?

It's one thing to think white privilege doesn't exist...it's another to think that "white people don't oppress anybody" somehow implies that white privilege doesn't exist.

Where's the logic in that? It's not even a partisan thing, those are just two completely different concepts.

 

[TyGuy]

So, let's establish some premises first, right?

So, we can agree on a few basic things I think:

A1) Human beings are inherently tribal.

A2) Tribalism entails degrees of trust and mistrust for ingroups and outgroups.

A3) Groups of such associations form implicit biases, or sociologically speaking, group biases, based on preference as well as prejudice. Some of this is learned, but much is simply based on fear.

...

B1) Humans, like other species, generally congregate and self-associate with others that they believe appear as their parents do (most animals never see themselves, they associate self image from their parents).

B2) In America (unlike say, Brazil), miscegenation is a much more recent phenomena (Loving v Virginia).

B3) America has a long history of forming social groups or classes based specifically on a system of racial categorizations that stems from it's founding. (See, US Constitution, Civil War, 13-15th Amendments, Civil Rights Act, Segregation/Desegregation, etc etc etc)

..

So let's start with these premises.. Are we in agreement that {A1..A3} and {B1..B3} are true statements?

Historically humans are tribal. They are a lot less so in modern society. I live with a bunch of Chinese people. So clearly I don't just associate with people that look like me.

 

[TyGuy]

It's one thing to think white privilege doesn't exist...it's another to think that "white people don't oppress anybody" somehow implies that white privilege doesn't exist.

Where's the logic in that? It's not even a partisan thing, those are just two completely different concepts.

If nobody else other than white people have this privileged then certainly others are being oppressed in some fashion no? How am I privileged by just being white that is different from me just being an American in the 21st century?

 

[DJTJ]

If nobody else other than white people have this privileged then certainly others are being oppressed in some fashion no? How am I privileged by just being white that is different from me just being an American in the 21st century?

You literally have been told and hand held through it ten times.

Normative Privelage. Google it. Apply is to whatever country you like, and then look at things like... Income.

In a vast majority of developed countries, is the normative race the race who has the highest income? Is it the race who largely is chosen as representation that makes laws? Or, societally speaking, the race that makes what's... normal in society to do, say, wear, act?

 

[gourimoko]

Historically humans are tribal. They are a lot less so in modern society.

I would agree with this, however, that's a question specifically relating to the degree of triablism; thus, we both agree humans are tribal, right? Less so today than previously, agreed; but, inherently we are tribal, correct?

So, we agree on all 6 points with that stipulation in place?

 

[TyGuy]

I would agree with this, however, that's a question specifically relating to the degree of triablism; thus, we both agree humans are tribal, right? Less so today than previously, agreed; but, inherently we are tribal, correct?

So, we agree on all 6 points with that stipulation in place?

No, like I said. I live with a bunch of Chinese people. Historically, probably accurate. More and more people live outside of the community of who they self identify with.

 

[gourimoko]

No, like I said. I live with a bunch of Chinese people. Historically, probably accurate. More and more people live outside of the community of who they self identify with.

Hmm...

So are you interpreting these premises to mean "all people" as in, every person fits this rule? Because if you are, I would put to you that I am speaking in a general sense.

That is to say, you would agree that the vast majority of White males do not live in Chinese households, or .. in minority-dominated households, right?

(in the interest of brevity I'll answer this question: in 2015, only 93% of White people married another White person)

So, again, I'm trying to find some consensus on this point, but, you understand why I cannot use your or my own anecdotal experiences (recall I'm married to an Asian) as evidence to make a general case as that would be a form of cognitive confirmation bias, agreed?

So please understand, you may not observe these rules applying to yourself, but we're talking about the society as a whole, not a single individual.

 

[Huber.]

I'm not sure I follow how you've come to that conclusion?

Ty, if you'd like, I can walk you through the logic as to why "White Privilege" exists...

What year do you predict white privilege will end?

 

[gourimoko]

What year do you predict white privilege will end based?

FWIW, I don't think America will be a race-based society after 2100... I don't think the concept of "race" will make much sense at that point... not that it does today.

p.s.
I really hate the term "White Privilege." If it could just be called "normative privilege" we would never have these kinds of conversations.

 

[TyGuy]

Hmm...

So are you interpreting these premises to mean "all people" as in, every person fits this rule? Because if you are, I would put to you that I am speaking in a general sense.

That is to say, you would agree that the vast majority of White males do not live in Chinese households, or .. in minority-dominated households, right?

So, again, I'm trying to find some consensus on this point, but, you understand why I cannot use your or my own anecdotal experiences (recall I'm married to an Asian) as evidence to make a general case as that would be a form of cognitive confirmation bias, agreed?

No, i'm just giving you my situation as my anecdotal example of modern society being much different. A lot of people live alone, a lot of people live in mixed neighborhoods, mixed families, or have mixed roommates. You obviously have the same situation.

 

[gourimoko]

No, i'm just giving you my situation as my anecdotal example of modern society being much different. A lot of people live alone, a lot of people live in mixed neighborhoods, mixed families, or have mixed roommates. You obviously have the same situation.

1) Right, but, you can also acknowledge that, as of 1970, less than 1% of Americans married outside of their race, and as of today, that number is much higher (to your point), but isn't high enough to change the general case (see above)... We're still talking single-digit percentages.

2) So you and I are not representative of the general case, Ty; agreed?

So, if we can agree to 1 and 2 here then we should agree overall, right? Unless there is something I'm missing?

 

[TyGuy]

1) Right, but, you can also acknowledge that, as of 1970, less than 1% of Americans married outside of their race, and as of today, that number is much higher (to your point), but isn't high enough to change the general case (see above)... We're still talking single-digit percentages.

2) So you and I are not representative of the general case, Ty; agreed?

So, if we can agree to 1 and 2 here then we should agree overall, right? Unless there is something I'm missing?

I'm interested to see how California compares to the rest of the country.

 

[Nathan S]

If nobody else other than white people have this privileged then certainly others are being oppressed in some fashion no? How am I privileged by just being white that is different from me just being an American in the 21st century?

Privilege isn't something that individuals have to go out and get by oppressing other people. It's something that individuals get for free when societal biases are in their favor. Every group (race, sexual orientation, class/occupation, etc.) is subject to various societal biases. White privilege refers to the largely beneficial biases our society has towards white people relative to people of other races.

EDIT:

p.s.
I really hate the term "White Privilege." If it could just be called "normative privilege" we would never have these kinds of conversations.

Totally agree with this.

 

[gourimoko]

I'm interested to see how California compares to the rest of the country.

I would imagine it's much higher than the rest of the country; but, specifically, I'm trying to establish consensus on the aforementioned premises.

Where do we agree / disagree and how do we form consensus on those specific points so that we can establish a logic path of reasoning to whether or not 'White Privilege' exists?

 

[TyGuy]

FWIW, I don't think America will be a race-based society after 2100... I don't think the concept of "race" will make much sense at that point... not that it does today.

p.s.
I really hate the term "White Privilege." If it could just be called "normative privilege" we would never have these kinds of conversations.

Can you see how it might be annoying to be lectured as a white guy. That it's okay to single out only white males and lecture them? Or told you have this privilege? Wouldn't that be extremely annoying to you?