Sixers shopping 2nd pick with Elton Brand

[Chris]

That's 2 points ahead of 15, not really much of a difference.

When talking per game, it sort of is.

 

[Evancook]

That's 2 points ahead of 15, not really much of a difference.

47 players averaged 17ppg+ this season,77 averaged 15ppg+
Thats a big difference

 

[The Voice]

I'm comparing the talent and potential, it has nothing to do with the position they play.

You're obviously not basing it upon team need. Big men are needed on this team.

So you're basically saying you wouldn't trade Mo or Boobie for Wall or Turner, correct?

Never said I wouldn't. You asked who's better RIGHT NOW. I never said the two won't ever be better then the two. Use logic man and don't twist my words.

When did I ever say scouts know everything? I implied that they are paid top dollar to do their job, and a lot of the time they get it right, especially in the right franchise when the owner and GM know what they're doing.

If you look at results of drafts, drafting is never a lock.

Players slip through the 1st round, and sometimes the second round. Scouts and GM's aren't perfect..

Obviously, but there's also a lot of busts in between.

Who is James and why would I care if he agreed with you?

Username: James

I'm just pointing out that non OSU fans tend to agree OSU fans lead to homerism.

Agreed. 6th round draft picks who don't get a chance to prove themselves are big time bust.

OK, he's not a bust. He's a never was, happy?

Nice logic. You've admitted before you HATE Ohio State, so it's no surprise you're hating on Turner and now Troy Smith.

I'm not hating on Turner. I think he could turn out to be a hell of a player. Troy Smith sucks though and the fact Browns fans wanted that clown is a joke.

No, no I wouldn't. You're trading Mo Williams who hasn't proven himself at the big stage for a guy who has the chance to be a lot better. Williams is what he is right now. A guy who can score and shoot, but is a terrible defender and isn't much of a creating shots for others type point guard.

Essentially you're wanting the Cavs to buy a lotto ticket.

I'd take my chances with Daniel Gibson at point guard without question. I'm struggling to understand how he is a "one trick pony" though? Has his game declined since he got his chance to play? Its only improved, actually..

What can he do besides shoot 3's?

When did I even mention John Wall being a headcase or not? I said Beasly was, I never said a thing about Wall..

You mention that picking Beasley was bad scouting cause he's a head case (two words BTW). By that logic, Wall would be a horrible first overall pick.

I'd still take my chances with Wall considering he has a ton of upside and he would fit well next to LeBron in my opinion. He may take some time to adapt to the game at this level, but I would feel confident that he will be a pretty good pro here, especially better than Gibson or Williams.

No question I'd take Wall, but probably wouldn't take Turner. I feel like Wall is much less of a gamble, but that might not even pan out. Turner took a while to develop in college, which means he's probably a lot more mature. He probably has less room to grow then Wall though. Now before you tell me Wade was at college for 3 years and look how he turned out. I'm going to tell you he only played 2 of those years and look at others like Acie Law.

 

[AvonCavsFan]

So you don't think he has more potential than anybody else on the Cavs outside of LeBron? Who else has more? JJ Hickson? I'd rather take my chances with Turner..

Some people let a few games cloud their judgement of our own players. The fact that we ran a horrible offensive scheme and had Lebron pound the ball into the court seems to be overlooked all the time.

As for potential, I am not sure Turner has much more than you see now. It is not like he is a freshman coming out. He isn't a great athlete that has to refine his game. He is an average athlete and you already see a refined game. Can he learn to shoot better? Maybe. I don't think he is as "can't miss" as you seem to think. And there are tons of players of the year that busted out in the NBA. I don't think Turner will be bust, but I don't think he will be a perennial all-star either. I see him as a very good player, one that I would not be willing to take on Brand's contract for.

And Andy's potential is greater than Beasley's if you ask me. Andy's defensive skill is amazing, Beasley does not have that potential. 2nd team defense, this means he is one of the top 4 big man defenders in the entire league, and to get there as a sub? That is outstanding. Andy is a far better offensive player than he gets credit for. He has a lot of skill around the hoop, he sets great picks...he just doesn't have a good jump shot. Beasley does one thing better than Andy right now and that is shoot a jumper.

 

[Evancook]

To all the Evan Turner Skepticism:
There are reasons why you guys are posting on realcavsfans.com;
There are reasons why other people are NBA Scouts and NOT YOU.
If you're convinced you really see Evan Turner for what he is and NBA Scouts don't; then you go ahead and keep on believing that.
Scouts aren't picking him because of his CPOY award,or else Hansbrough would have went top 5 last year.
They're picking him because he is pretty much a consensus sure thing.
There have been a lot more players picked in the top 5 that turned out to be good that turned into Busts people.

 

[The Voice]

Turner has a lot of weaknesses as well, like ability to score off the pick and roll. He seems to like ido's and is ball dependent (with LBJ we don't need another guy like that). He is a solid FT shooter though.

To all the Evan Turner Skepticism:
There are reasons why you guys are posting on realcavsfans.com;
There are reasons why other people are NBA Scouts and NOT YOU.
If you're convinced you really see Evan Turner for what he is and NBA Scouts don't; then you go ahead and keep on believing that.
Scouts aren't picking him because of his CPOY award,or else Hansbrough would have went top 5 last year.
They're picking him because he is pretty much a consensus sure thing.
There have been a lot more players picked in the top 5 that turned out to be good that turned into Busts people.

There's no such thing as a sure thing. Sam Bowey was picked first. Darko Milicic was picked 2nd. Was he a sure thing?

 

[AvonCavsFan]

If I could I WOULD trade Mo for Turner straight up. But that is because I would start Gibson and Turner would fit because he would be an upgrade defensively from Mo.

I am not sure Turner will end up being a better player than Mo long term, but for team fit I would do it. Mo does one thing will, shoot the ball. That is a very important skill to have in the NBA. If you have a guy like that as a coach, your job should be to get him open looks. We never really did that with Mo. Watch Ray Allen, he needs a ton of picks to get open to shoot it...same for a guy like Reggie Miller back in the day, tons of picks to get open. Mo shoots the three ball BETTER than both of those guys. Think about that for a minute.

Gibson is a top 8 CAREER three point shooter, and yet he sat on the bench?!? Parker is top 10. Mo is around 30th in career three pt percentage. THREE of the top 30 ALL TIME on the same team. Why not set these guys picks to get them open looks?

 

[The Voice]

If I could I WOULD trade Mo for Turner straight up. But that is because I would start Gibson and Turner would fit because he would be an upgrade defensively from Mo.

I am not sure Turner will end up being a better player than Mo long term, but for team fit I would do it. Mo does one thing will, shoot the ball. That is a very important skill to have in the NBA. If you have a guy like that as a coach, your job should be to get him open looks. We never really did that with Mo. Watch Ray Allen, he needs a ton of picks to get open to shoot it...same for a guy like Reggie Miller back in the day, tons of picks to get open. Mo shoots the three ball BETTER than both of those guys. Think about that for a minute.

Gibson is a top 8 CAREER three point shooter, and yet he sat on the bench?!? Parker is top 10. Mo is around 30th in career three pt percentage. THREE of the top 30 ALL TIME on the same team. Why not set these guys picks to get them open looks?

Was Mo's shooting ability effectively used by Mike Brown? Would he be better under a better coach like Phil?

Parker wasn't used off picks as much probably because he's going toward the end of his career. Boobie doesn't do much of anything besides shoot 3's and isn't exactly Mike Brown's favorite defender. It's probably the same reason Toronto doesn't play Kapono.

Also Mike Brown was scratching his head during the Boston series and spitting in a cup.

 

[Evancook]

Turner has a lot of weaknesses as well, like ability to score off the pick and roll. He seems to like ido's and is ball dependent (with LBJ we don't need another guy like that). He is a solid FT shooter though.



There's no such thing as a sure thing. Sam Bowey was picked first. Darko Milicic was picked 2nd. Was he a sure thing?

okay,i can play that game too
Was Kevin Durant a bust?Isiah Thomas?Jason Kidd?

You're just speaking in a bias way.
"My guy has potential,you're guys unproven"
"My guy can play defense when he wants to,your guy rarely plays defense"

 

[The Voice]

okay
Was Kevin Durant a bust?Isiah Thomas?Jason Kidd?

Over the past 20 years (89-2008) You're right that the odds are for them becoming a star. 70% of the first overall picks become a star, 60% of 2nd overall picks, but the third overall pick statistically is the highest to become a star at 85%.

There's 25 percent chance for the first two picks in the draft to be solid and another 5% for them to be a role player. The first 5 picks haven't had a complete bust. Statistically the second pick is the worst of the top 4 picks.

This is what they use for rating
Rating = points/game + rebounds/game + assists/game

Star -- 20+ rating
Solid -- 15 to 19.9
Role Player -- 10 to14.9
Deep Bench -- 5 to 9.9
Complete Bust -- less than 5
DNP -- (never played in the NBA)

http://www.82games.com/nbadraftpicks.htm

okay,i can play that game too
Was Kevin Durant a bust?Isiah Thomas?Jason Kidd?

You're just speaking in a bias way.
"My guy has potential,you're guys unproven"
"My guy can play defense when he wants to,your guy rarely plays defense"

Where did I ever say any of that? No where did I say my guy has potential or anything about defense.

 

[CavsRules]

You're obviously not basing it upon team need. Big men are needed on this team.

We aren't talking about trading JJ Hickson for Evan Turner here(even though I'd consider it heavily if the offer was on the table). We're comparing talent and potential here, nothing else, nothing more..

Never said I wouldn't. You asked who's better RIGHT NOW. I never said the two won't ever be better then the two. Use logic man and don't twist my words.

So in your eyes, if you're in the NBA right now you're above ANY college player, correct? Right now, Turner and Wall will be better than half the Cavs' roster, and that's including Mo Williams. Now of course that's just an opinion right now, but that opinion is more than likely to become a fact.

If you look at results of drafts, drafting is never a lock.

Never said it was..

Username: James

I'm just pointing out that non OSU fans tend to agree OSU fans lead to homerism.

Why would I care what a Boston fan thinks of Ohio State or Cleveland for that matter?

OK, he's not a bust. He's a never was, happy?

No, because this guy has some talent and he's just stuck under the Ravens' back up guys. If he was given a chance to start elsewhere, you probably wouldn't be hating on him.

I'm not hating on Turner. I think he could turn out to be a hell of a player. Troy Smith sucks though and the fact Browns fans wanted that clown is a joke.

Why does he suck? I'd love to hear it.. You can't really say he didn't prove himself at the NFL level, because whenever he got a chance he proved he could play the game. He was going to be the starter for that team before he got an illness that cost him the starting spot, or he would likely be the guy under center right now for the Ravens.

I get it, you hate OSU, you're best off hating on Ted Ginn for being a bust than Troy Smith, though..

What can he do besides shoot 3's?

All he did was shoot threes against the Pistons and that whole season where he shined, so what makes him a one trick pony?

All he has done is improve his overall game and his defensive game. The main reason he hasn't gotten big enough chances are because of the log-jam we have at the guard position. Might I remind you though he did do very well when Mo and Delonte were both hurt during the season and he was a big factor in the winning streak we put together with him out there.

You mention that picking Beasley was bad scouting cause he's a head case (two words BTW). By that logic, Wall would be a horrible first overall pick.

I mentioned picking Beasly was a mistake? Where exactly did I mention this? I actually stated he is heading into his third year and to give the kid some time, nowhere did I say it was a mistake to pick him. Did Miami take a risk and gambled on Beasly knowing his past history of problems? Sure, but it's a risk they're worth taking right now and who knows what will happen within a few years for Beasly. With the right coaching and attitude I'm sure he'll be better in the near future.

No question I'd take Wall, but probably wouldn't take Turner. I feel like Wall is much less of a gamble, but that might not even pan out. Turner took a while to develop in college, which means he's probably a lot more mature. He probably has less room to grow then Wall though. Now before you tell me Wade was at college for 3 years and look how he turned out. I'm going to tell you he only played 2 of those years and look at others like Acie Law.

Each college player you take is a work in process, basically. You don't know what they will be in the pros, I understand that and it's common sense. However, when looking at a cretin players talents and potential it's less more than a risk and a gamble.

I'd take Turner and Wall easily over Mo Williams, that's not even comparable. Williams is already at his peek, Turner has a much higher roof he can hit.

Some people let a few games cloud their judgement of our own players. The fact that we ran a horrible offensive scheme and had Lebron pound the ball into the court seems to be overlooked all the time.

Oh, I don't let a few games make my judgment for any player. I watch a lot of basketball, especially our guys here of course. I understand we didn't run much of an offense, but you could still see what these guys are capable of by watching them play. I'm sure they don't always run terrible offensive plays, or this team wouldn't have been anywhere near the top of the league.

As for potential, I am not sure Turner has much more than you see now. It is not like he is a freshman coming out. He isn't a great athlete that has to refine his game. He is an average athlete and you already see a refined game. Can he learn to shoot better? Maybe. I don't think he is as "can't miss" as you seem to think. And there are tons of players of the year that busted out in the NBA. I don't think Turner will be bust, but I don't think he will be a perennial all-star either. I see him as a very good player, one that I would not be willing to take on Brand's contract for.

Just because I said Evan Turner will be better than Mo Williams does not mean I think he is "can't miss" player in the draft. I don't see how Turner can't surpass the peek that Mo Williams has hit, is it really that high?

I'd consider taking on Brand's contract if we got the second pick in the draft. Now does that mean we just select Turner because he's the second best player in the draft? No, it just means we have options with that pick. We could also shop it around if we did the deal with Philly, kinda like what Boston did when they got Ray Allen for Jeff Green. We would now have the assets to do a deal like that.

And Andy's potential is greater than Beasley's if you ask me. Andy's defensive skill is amazing, Beasley does not have that potential. 2nd team defense, this means he is one of the top 4 big man defenders in the entire league, and to get there as a sub? That is outstanding. Andy is a far better offensive player than he gets credit for. He has a lot of skill around the hoop, he sets great picks...he just doesn't have a good jump shot. Beasley does one thing better than Andy right now and that is shoot a jumper.

Give me Andy over Beasly for now, but in a few years if Beasly gets his head on straight and grips his full talents and abilities, he will be a lot better than he is now. But for now, I'm in agreement with you on this.

 

[Evancook]

Where did I ever say any of that? No where did I say my guy has potential or anything about defense.

its an analogy;i was just saying you were saying a bias statement by naming Darko&etc when there are a lot more #2 picks that are 10000x better than Darko.
Darko wasn't even the consensus 2nd pick;even then people scoffed at it

 

[Rist77]

There's no such thing as a sure thing. Sam Bowey was picked first. Darko Milicic was picked 2nd. Was he a sure thing?

Sam Bowie was picked 2nd. Hakeem went 1st.

 

[Dortch316]

I can't believe that the Wolves wouldn't offer up Al Jefferson for the 2nd and Brand....

I would make that trade if I was the Wolves.

PG - Flynn/Sessions/
SG - Sessions/Turner/Ellington/sasha
SF - Turner/Brewer/Gomes/sasha
PF - Brand/Love/Gomes
C - Brand/Cousins/Darko

That's a pretty solid young core with a couple of vets thrown in...

 

[The Voice]

its an analogy;i was just saying you were saying a bias statement by naming Darko&etc when there are a lot more #2 picks that are 10000x better than Darko.
Darko wasn't even the consensus 2nd pick;even then people scoffed at it

Yes and all I'm saying is that it's not a guarantee when you said it was.

Do I think Turner/Wall will be better then Mo? Without a question I do. Right now though, you can't say they're better IMHO. Would I include Mo in a trade for the second pick in the draft and Brand? I might, I'd think about it a lot more then you guys are. I'd prefer to get Iggy/Brand over 2nd pick/Brand to be honest though.