So long, Kay Felder

[Jon]

They lost the game because the depth cannot cover for Kyrie to be out with Love. And then you made it about me.

Grow up.

Sorry, but it's absolutely about you. It's clear you have preconceived notions about Kay you don't even care to re-visit. You still wish we had Delly, you blame Gilbert, and you're putting that burden on Kay.

We're trying to bring you up to speed with what's actually going on, but you'd rather deflect and ignore that too.

*shrugs*

 

[Randolphkeys]

Sorry, but it's absolutely about you. It's clear you have preconceived notions about Kay you don't even care to re-visit. You still wish we had Delly, you blame Gilbert, and you're putting that burden on Kay.

We're trying to bring you up to speed with what's actually going on, but you'd rather deflect and ignore that too.

*shrugs*

Next week, let's keep the focus on players rather than attempts to create a mean spirited argument.

 

[TitleTown]

I'll be honest with myself about one preconception: This was a vanity pick by the owner. The part of me that doesn't like owners of a pro sports team having a lot of say in the 15 man roster tainted my view from the start.

Now onto what I saw in Summer League: I wanted to be proven wrong, and I still do. However, I see length on the defensive side that is a liability and will always be a liability. His athleticism is u doubtedly off the charts, but in a league where the three ball is becoming the first offensive option for elite teams, his defensive liability in closing out concerns me.

So I can look past both of those issues, most notably the defensive one, if he is an elite offensive option. Has he looked better during this stretch of Kyrie's "hamstring tightness"? A little. I agree he is learning to pick spots on the floor for his own offense, and he needs to do that more often. But, at this point, I don't see an elite offensive option. I wonder if he is deserving of that four year contract without showing elite potential on offense.

Why does he have to be "elite"? I'm fine with "good" for a backup PG. And he's already shown potential to be a "good" offensive threat.

 

[BankShot]

Never been a big fan of Jon's posting style and have always been of fan of Keys (even before RCF)...but I have to say, Jon is right on this one.

 

[Randolphkeys]

Why does he have to be "elite"? I'm fine with "good" for a backup PG. And he's already shown potential to be a "good" offensive threat.

Let's be honest, if he really were that good, he wouldn't have been playing 16 minutes against Chicago with McCrae getting 33 minutes. Felder is actually shooting the three ball better than I expected so far. That is a credit to the work he is putting in. However, "good on offense" isn't really measurable. What I see is bad tendencies to look for his own shot first, even when the other players on the floor are much better scorers. That might be one reason he isn't a rotational player over McCrae.

And I hope I don't have to explain this, but the temp ban isn't for having a high opinion of Felder. Everyone can go right ahead and disagree with my assessment... but taking things to a personal level time and time again isn't what RCF is about.

 

[TitleTown]

Let's be honest, if he really were that good, he wouldn't have been playing 16 minutes against Chicago with McCrae getting 33 minutes. Felder is actually shooting the three ball better than I expected so far. That is a credit to the work he is putting in. However, "good on offense" isn't really measurable. What I see is bad tendencies to look for his own shot first, even when the other players on the floor are much better scorers. That might be one reason he isn't a rotational player over McCrae.

And I hope I don't have to explain this, but the temp ban isn't for having a high opinion of Felder. Everyone can go right ahead and disagree with my assessment... but taking things to a personal level time and time again isn't what RCF is about.

I agree with you wholeheartedly about the personal shit.

Disagree about Felder--only because the things you point out as bad tendencies, I see as a learning process. And to be honest, we need guys who can create their own shots as part of the second unit. The more attention he can bring to himself, the more that will open things up for other players. Which, in turn, will lead to him sharing the ball more.

 

[K1rieIrving>AllOtherPG's]

I see potential in Kay offensively but he's raw right now, maybe he can turn into a more athletic Isiah Thomas in 4 or 5 years, who knows? I really hope he will because he looks like good kid and a hard worker.

As of right now, I can't see how he could really help this team in the next 1-2 years, biggest issue are his height and his defense and shooting, I know it sucks but hes just too short that it'll be nearly impossible to play him in the playoffs because he'll be targeted on every possession.

So although I'm optimistic about Kays offensive future in the NBA he is a long term project & I'm still not sure if a 5'7 guy will ever be playable in today's NBA unless hes some offensive juggernaut like Isiah Thomas.

It's hard to overlook these 3 things

- Hes an inexperienced rookie that needs significant time on the court to get better.

- He will always be 5'7, no matter how much effort and hustle he brings on
defense him being 5'7 will always be a problem, especially in the playoffs when teams lock in on weaknesses.

- He can't shoot the 3PT, the roster is built on spacing and shooting from all positions, we can't have free safeties out here double teaming LeBron/Kyrie/Love because a guy can't shoot, we want to punish any double team or help defense instantly with an open 3 pointer.

So I definitely see why the team is looking for a more viable backup PG right now.

 

[Cavatt]

Let's be honest, if he really were that good, he wouldn't have been playing 16 minutes against Chicago with McCrae getting 33 minutes. Felder is actually shooting the three ball better than I expected so far. That is a credit to the work he is putting in. However, "good on offense" isn't really measurable. What I see is bad tendencies to look for his own shot first, even when the other players on the floor are much better scorers. That might be one reason he isn't a rotational player over McCrae.

And I hope I don't have to explain this, but the temp ban isn't for having a high opinion of Felder. Everyone can go right ahead and disagree with my assessment... but taking things to a personal level time and time again isn't what RCF is about.

I think Mcrae is a chucker straight up. In Felder I see a guy who is trying to establish a jump shot so they come up on him and #1 blow by the defender #2 or pass the ball.

He is a really good passer. I think he can do much better in this area, and establishing his jumpshot will help this. A PG has to get time with the other members of the team and learn their tendencies. It seems once he hits a couple of shots, he is suddenly destroying them. When they sag off and protect the basket, he is unable to utilize his speed. His shot seems to be coming along fine, although I agree in the Chicago game he took too many at the beginning of the game.

Also, he is always talking about the scouting report in interviews. That is a really good sign. Never ever heard that from Kyrie, but I have from Tristan when he was a younger player, and I know he still studies it because Tristan alters the way he plays guys he got burnt by in the past. We have seen a little bit of these adjustments from Felder as well. Lebron even said it was encouraging to see that Felder put what he has learned off the court into a game.

I understand he might have been a vanity pick, but so too was TT? If he works out half as well as Tristan in this sense(and with the understanding he is a 2nd rounder) I will be psyched. I don't expect him to be a great defender either, but he can cover ground quickly and jump high, so if he can put those skills together with his head, he will be able to soak up 10-12 min a game against 2md units.

 

[wuck]

I'm not yet convinced that Felder can offer anything in the playoffs this year, but I appreciate some elements of his game that could help him become a good change of place. I have started to think that Felder may be able to contribute down the road, which is not how I felt for the first 1/4 of the season.

Considering how difficult it has been for the Cavs to develop young talent to increase the team's depth, I hope they keep giving him minutes. It's obvious from recent games that he is feeling more comfortable now than he did early in the year, even if he hasn't established consistency. In any case, I don't want to start next year with the Cavs having to find all new young prospects for the bench once again.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

But, at this point, I don't see an elite offensive option. I wonder if he is deserving of that four year contract without showing elite potential on offense.

I'm kind of at a loss to understand where you're coming from on this. Felder's contract isn't some oppressive 4 year deal -- it's only three years, $2.4M. And only 1 million of that is guaranteed, spread over the first two years, so the third year is really a team option. So actually, the contract is a plus - if he does well, we got him cheaply for 3 years.

The expectation/requirement set for him as the 54th player taken in that draft also seems a bit...optimistic. If he had showed "elite offensive potential", we'd be paying him more than that, and there's no way he'd have been available to us. He's a longshot -- that's what you get at 54.

Coming to a veteran, championship team with two very high usage superstars, and a third who could be, has to be an enormous adjustment for a high-usage college PG. It took pretty much a year and a half for Love to figure out how to fit in on this team -- isn't it a little much to expect Felder to have figured out how to mesh with these guys when he's played less than 200 minutes the entire season?

Anyway, on the plus side, I like how his 3 pts. % is developing. It went up every year in college: 32.3%, then 33.8%, and finally 35.5% (shooting more 3's than in his first two years combined). And so far, he's shooting 36.4% this season, which is really respectable given the greater distance.
.

 

[rabman_gold]

The odds of Kay Felder succeeding in the NBA (or for the first couple years as a Cav) isn't really high at all. It was a Gilbert pick, after all. And letting the owner decide which players we get isn't a good strategy... at least not when you're a contender (see: Mark Cuban, before and after 2011 championship).

But despite all that, there are players 5'9" and shorter who have made a career for themselves (Muggsy Bogues, Spud Webb, Calvin Murphy, Nate Robinson, Isaiah Thomas, and Earl Boykins to name a few). Yes, there's less than 10 all-time who played more than 5 seasons in the NBA, but it does happen. It just means that Kay needs to sculpt a specialty in order to succeed.

Sometimes (not often), players who weren't really tall could come in and make an impact in a series that mattered a lot, even if they didn't play much. J.J. Barea comes to mind in 2011 NBA Finals. Travis Best from Indiana in the early 2000s. Randy Brown from Chicago? Darrell Armstrong from Orlando. Just to name a few.

His attitude towards the game is an important part of the process, so he deserves a chance for these next couple of years. I keep believing in the term: "patience". Let it play out before counting him out. In the meantime, take a look at whenever he plays in Canton. Until then, we'll have to wait and see.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

The odds of Kay Felder succeeding in the NBA (or for the first couple years as a Cav) isn't really high at all. It was a Gilbert pick, after all.

He was the 54th pick in the draft - that's why his chances of succeeding in the NBA are low. And considering our rather incredible run of unsuccessful second round picks, if Felder manages to contribute at all, maybe we should consider having Dan make all our second round picks.

j/k, for anyone wondering.

 

[FiftyTwoAndThrough]

I think Mcrae is a chucker straight up. In Felder I see a guy who is trying to establish a jump shot so they come up on him and #1 blow by the defender #2 or pass the ball.

I completely agree. There are 20 guys in the D league that can get you inefficient, empty calorie, high volume chucking like McRae. I hoped because of his frame he had some defensive potential, but he's awful.

He plays a brand of D similar to Frye's where he's a step and a half late on any sort of rotation and can't grab a rebound to save his life. That one he let skip by him in the final two minutes on Wednesday was a pitiful lack of effort when LeBron is out there playing sick. Then he admits to not knowing all of his spots on offense and defense in the postgame interview. Dude, you've been here a while now, come on!

Now, we deal with this when it comes to Channing because he's an awesome bench shooter and floor spacer. With McRae, I'd rather go find someone that can defend and just hit enough open shots that they cannot be Roberson'd in the regular season (likely wouldn't play in playoffs anyway).

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[Randolphkeys]

I'm kind of at a loss to understand where you're coming from on this. Felder's contract isn't some oppressive 4 year deal -- it's only three years, $2.4M. And only 1 million of that is guaranteed, spread over the first two years, so the third year is really a team option. So actually, the contract is a plus - if he does well, we got him cheaply for 3 years.

Let's chop it up then. I'm sure the idea of having a cheap contract for three years was very attractive to Dan Gilbert. I might have misread a website with salary info, I thought I read team option in the fourth year... and from the sound of things the owner is going to need a lot of persuading Felder isn't worth that option. I'm sure giving an underdog from a blighted area of Detroit Michigan a chance is a nice ice breaker for his other business contacts as well. So, Dan Gilbert gets to spend his money the way he wants... but this is a league with only 15 salary slots and a faulted roster. I'd rather Gilbert buy another yacht or a start-up tech company when he wants to feel like a powerful eccentric billionaire and leave the roster to basketball people. Maybe that's just me.

The expectation/requirement set for him as the 54th player taken in that draft also seems a bit...optimistic. If he had showed "elite offensive potential", we'd be paying him more than that, and there's no way he'd have been available to us. He's a longshot -- that's what you get at 54.

I've already mentioned elsewhere why I feel Felder has to be an absolute dynamo on offense, and that is his defensive shortcomings that cannot be fixed. Call me unrealistic about a 54th pick, but that is the reality for NBA players under six foot with average wingspans in today's NBA. Teams are going to isolate him on a tall shooter eventually. Again, it's not like the Cavaliers HAD to draft at 54, they bought the pick for over two million. They technically could have sat back, saved the cash for that new yacht and signed Ron Baker if not for the owner's personal interests. More importantly, why is the roster set up to play the 54th pick rotation minutes in such a crucial season? It may cost the team home court in the Finals, and I'm not exaggerating.

Coming to a veteran, championship team with two very high usage superstars, and a third who could be, has to be an enormous adjustment for a high-usage college PG. It took pretty much a year and a half for Love to figure out how to fit in on this team -- isn't it a little much to expect Felder to have figured out how to mesh with these guys when he's played less than 200 minutes the entire season?

It's absolutely unrealistic to expect him to play like a veteran point guard right away. That's why LeBron and Ty Lue are beating the drum for a veteran PG. I still see a situation right now where there is a numbers crunch for bench depth, and here's Dan Gilbert's pet project taking up a spot while unable to help much right now. I'm a pretty optimistic person, I'd like to believe... But doesn't that seem like an avoidable problem?

Anyway, on the plus side, I like how his 3 pts. % is developing. It went up every year in college: 32.3%, then 33.8%, and finally 35.5% (shooting more 3's than in his first two years combined). And so far, he's shooting 36.4% this season, which is really respectable given the greater distance.
.

I am also happy to see his three point percentage that high because this summer I didn't think he was going to crack 30% on the season. I am sure hoping that he becomes an offensive force and I'm totally wrong, because it looks like we are stuck with Felder. He's got friends in high places. I'm also not about to drink the Kool Aid when I'm seeing him on the floor instead of a more prepared player and he doesn't help the team.

 

[Cavatt]

Let's chop it up then. I'm sure the idea of having a cheap contract for three years was very attractive to Dan Gilbert. I might have misread a website with salary info, I thought I read team option in the fourth year... and from the sound of things the owner is going to need a lot of persuading Felder isn't worth that option. I'm sure giving an underdog from a blighted area of Detroit Michigan a chance is a nice ice breaker for his other business contacts as well. So, Dan Gilbert gets to spend his money the way he wants... but this is a league with only 15 salary slots and a faulted roster. I'd rather Gilbert buy another yacht or a start-up tech company when he wants to feel like a powerful eccentric billionaire and leave the roster to basketball people. Maybe that's just me.



I've already mentioned elsewhere why I feel Felder has to be an absolute dynamo on offense, and that is his defensive shortcomings that cannot be fixed. Call me unrealistic about a 54th pick, but that is the reality for NBA players under six foot with average wingspans in today's NBA. Teams are going to isolate him on a tall shooter eventually. Again, it's not like the Cavaliers HAD to draft at 54, they bought the pick for over two million. They technically could have sat back, saved the cash for that new yacht and signed Ron Baker if not for the owner's personal interests. More importantly, why is the roster set up to play the 54th pick rotation minutes in such a crucial season? It may cost the team home court in the Finals, and I'm not exaggerating.



It's absolutely unrealistic to expect him to play like a veteran point guard right away. That's why LeBron and Ty Lue are beating the drum for a veteran PG. I still see a situation right now where there is a numbers crunch for bench depth, and here's Dan Gilbert's pet project taking up a spot while unable to help much right now. I'm a pretty optimistic person, I'd like to believe... But doesn't that seem like an avoidable problem?



I am also happy to see his three point percentage that high because this summer I didn't think he was going to crack 30% on the season. I am sure hoping that he becomes an offensive force and I'm totally wrong, because it looks like we are stuck with Felder. He's got friends in high places. I'm also not about to drink the Kool Aid when I'm seeing him on the floor instead of a more prepared player and he doesn't help the team.

I think one of your best points is that he is not ready and he is taking up a roster spot. However, we are talking about trading for guys whose contracts are up this year in Korver and Gay as apipe dream whose contract is up and we would have to give up Shump who is locked in at a good number for the new cap. Is he going to stay on a vet min? We saw with Delly that we should have locked h8im up cheap while we had the chance. Any contract negotiations over vet min are going to be hard to swallow going forward. In that sense, I think it was a smart move.

As far as costing us home court in the finals, IMO that was decided when they started resting Lebron on back to backs and Kyrie got hurt. That was our margin for error if GS can keep it up, which I have no doubt they can. Maybe I am wrong, but when I watch the body language of Cavs and Warriors in the regular season, I just think the Warriors are pushing for home court again and Cavs are not. Playing so many unproven guys starter minutes negated it from the get go. I don't think it is all on Felder.