The Capricious Non partisan Government Arbitrary Action thread.

[AZ_]

View: https://twitter.com/hiphopsrevival/status/876088980697174017


MAGA!

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Illinois is about to run out of money. There's talk of bankruptcy, but the bankruptcy code doesn't contain a provision authorizing states (as opposed to cities/localities) to declare bankruptcy.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/could-illinois-be-the-first-state-to-file-for-bankruptcy/

Should get interesting. Problem is that the biggest problem is public pensions, but it's going to be tough for a Democrat-dominated legislature to vote to cut them.

 

[Wrathe]

View: https://twitter.com/hiphopsrevival/status/876088980697174017


MAGA!

I bet it was a good one!

 

[Wrathe]

Illinois is about to run out of money. There's talk of bankruptcy, but the bankruptcy code doesn't contain a provision authorizing states (as opposed to cities/localities) to declare bankruptcy.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/could-illinois-be-the-first-state-to-file-for-bankruptcy/

Should get interesting. Problem is that the biggest problem is public pensions, but it's going to be tough for a Democrat-dominated legislature to vote to cut them.

Are long ran conservative cities failing too? I hear about Detroit, Baltimore, Chicago, and I especially hear about the first two there being Democrat led for a long, long time.

I'm less interested in the party aspect, but policies.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Are long ran conservative cities failing too? I hear about Detroit, Baltimore, Chicago, and I especially hear about the first two there being Democrat led for a long, long time.

I'm less interested in the party aspect, but policies.

In terms of policies, the biggest problem these governments all have are over-promised pension benefits, and it's hardly a secret that most public sector employees and their unions support Democrats. As a general proposition, I'd imagine it is tough for a Democrat to win the nomination on a platform of cutting pension benefits. So over time, they just got way out of control.

Like Puerto Rico, Illinois has a massive pension crisis. Its unfunded pension liability for the state's five major plans grew 25 percent alone in one year, reaching $251 billion, according to Moody's. On a per-household basis, the state's pension debt burden stands at $27,000, according to the conservative-leaning Illinois Policy Institute.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/could-illinois-be-the-first-state-to-file-for-bankruptcy/

Here's a real eye-opening article about how bad it's been:

http://davidstockmanscontracorner.com/why-illinois-is-bankrupt-6000-teachers-get-pensions-of-100000/

Part of the problem is that the teachers' unions are excellent at PR, equating teacher salaries to the quality of children's education. Lots of people buy into that crap. So, they can have tremendous leverage during negotiations.

Stockman's article points out that it is common for collective bargaining agreements in Illinois to includes salary spikes prior to retirement, which have the effect of massively inflating the pensions to which educators would otherwise be entitled. And if you give Superintendents/school boards the choice of a strike, or deferring massive increases to down the road pension payments, it's not hard to see which option they're going to choose.

 

[Wrathe]

Part of the problem is that the teachers' unions are excellent at PR, equating teacher salaries to the quality of children's education.

Do you believe school teachers are under, over, or rightfully paid?
Maybe I've drank the Kool-Aid, but that's not really a spot I'd cut costs on.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Do you believe school teachers are under, over, or rightfully paid?
Maybe I've drank the Kool-Aid, but that's not really a spot I'd cut costs on.

I don't think generalizations are possible. Some are likely underpaid, some are overpaid. The teachers' union narrative is pretty much exclusively the former, though.

However, when you have some retired teachers pulling in over $200,000k in pension benefits, that's fucked up no matter where it is happening.

 

[Wrathe]

I don't think generalizations are possible. Some are likely underpaid, some are overpaid. The teachers' union narrative is pretty much exclusively the former, though.

However, when you have some retired teachers pulling in over $200,000k in pension benefits, that's fucked up no matter where it is happening.

Though massively different if that 200k is a California salary, as an example. That's not as crazy w/ their cost of living and wages there. It's crazy, almost like they have their own exchange rate

Generally speaking, I think teachers could be taken care of much better. I think how we fund education sucks.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Though massively different if that 200k is a California salary, as an example. That's not as crazy w/ their cost of living and wages there. It's crazy, almost like they have their own exchange rate

Generally speaking, I think teachers could be taken care of much better. I think how we fund education sucks.

That's still ridiculous in my view. Civil service/CBA protections that are common for teachers are incredibly valuable -- far more than most private sector workers get. That should be factored into compensation.

Where there is a teacher shortage, they are underpaid. Where there isn't, they are overpaid.

It's really as simple as that.

 

[Wrathe]

That's still ridiculous in my view. Civil service/CBA protections that are common for teachers are incredibly valuable -- far more than most private sector workers get. That should be factored into compensation.

Where there is a teacher shortage, they are underpaid. Where there isn't, they are overpaid.

It's really as simple as that.

That kind of implies next body up is adequate and that there's no skill in the individual though, doesn't it? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

I personally would love to teach. It just doesn't pay enough to consider. I do think a lot of their union bullshit makes it worse. Impossible to get rid of shitty teachers and make room for good ones, which in turn cuts into the demand you're talking about as well. My personal view is the "fluff" always went to the Administration portion of the district, not the teachers, they were getting screwed as well.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

That kind of implies next body up is adequate and that there's no skill in the individual though, doesn't it? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

Hate to say it, but most teaching is not rocket science. However, if we were going to keep pay above where it is needed to attract sufficient number of degreed teachers, then you have to make it much easier to get rid of the bad ones to improve the quality. But that's the exact opposite of what happens.

I personally would love to teach. It just doesn't pay enough to consider. I do think a lot of their union bullshit makes it worse. Impossible to get rid of shitty teachers and make room for good ones, which in turn cuts into the demand you're talking about as well. My personal view is the "fluff" always went to the Administration portion of the district, not the teachers, they were getting screwed as well.

Actually, same here. And I agree with most of that. But you're never going to get rid of what amounts to a pretty high "cause" standard to get rid of teachers, and so never going to have the opportunity to attract "above-average" teachers to replace what is usually there. And I'm not saying this to be disparaging, but look at things like average SAT score by college major, and education majors generally appear in the bottom third.

http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-the-average-sat-score-for-every-college-major-2014-10

And uh....near the bottom in average IQ.

http://www.randalolson.com/2014/06/25/average-iq-of-students-by-college-major-and-gender-ratio/

I remember my own teachers, and both of my kids' teachers, the youngest is going to be a junior. A few were exceptional, but for the most part, they were just pretty ordinary people doing an ordinary job, just like people in other fields.

 

[AZ_]

Hate to say it, but most teaching is not rocket science. However, if we were going to keep pay above where it is needed to attract sufficient number of degreed teachers, then you have to make it much easier to get rid of the bad ones to improve the quality. But that's the exact opposite of what happens.



Actually, same here. And I agree with most of that. But you're never going to get rid of what amounts to a pretty high "cause" standard to get rid of teachers, and so never going to have the opportunity to attract "above-average" teachers to replace what is usually there. And I'm not saying this to be disparaging, but look at things like average SAT score by college major, and education majors generally appear in the bottom third.

http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-the-average-sat-score-for-every-college-major-2014-10

And uh....near the bottom in average IQ.

http://www.randalolson.com/2014/06/25/average-iq-of-students-by-college-major-and-gender-ratio/

I remember my own teachers, and both of my kids' teachers, the youngest is going to be a junior. A few were exceptional, but for the most part, they were just pretty ordinary people doing an ordinary job, just like people in other fields.

Your argument seems to be that teaching doesn't require any discernible skill set?

I'd imagine you're saying this as someone who has never been locked in a room with 20 children age 8-12.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Your argument seems to be that teaching doesn't require any discernible skill set?

No. "Teaching" requires some skill set. Just one that is pretty common and/or not that hard to obtain. Being a truly good teacher is more difficult and more rare, though.

I'd imagine you're saying this as someone who has never been locked in a room with 20 children age 8-12.

Right, and I've never run a day care for babies either. Doesn't mean you pay those people $100k/year

 

[Wrathe]

No. "Teaching" requires some skill set. Just one that is pretty common and/or not that hard to obtain. Being a truly good teacher is more difficult and more rare, though.

Best teachers are those that invest in the children emotionally. Empathy. The ones that have it deserve to be paid in droves, they make the difference in your children's lives. I was fortunate to have a few that connected that way w/ me as well. Their lights shine bright enough to illuminate the poor teachers.

Really, it's true in anything these days. Finding people who give a shit is a hard job.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Best teachers are those that invest in the children emotionally. Empathy. The ones that have it deserve to be paid in droves, they make the difference in your children's lives. I was fortunate to have a few that connected that way w/ me as well. Their lights shine bright enough to illuminate the poor teachers.

Really, it's true in anything these days. Finding people who give a shit is a hard job.

I don't disagree with that at all. My point is that the way our public education system is generally structured -- collective bargaining agreements, seniority-based steps, termination for cause only - means that it is almost impossible to target compensation for the skills we like. The reality is that if you graduate college with a teaching degree, the effective hiring decision is going to be made long before you actually have a chance to demonstrate those exceptional qualities and be compensated for them.

That means once you get your teaching job, you've got your career pretty much set, and with a shitload more job security than people in the private sector. And since the hiring standards for teachers are comparatively low...I just don't see how you get around it.