The Rise of Skywalker spoilers thread

[Lyst]

How do you figure?

Should I quote myself? We are talking pre committing horrendous atrocities and post. Two entirely different scenarios.

 

[-Akronite-]

Luke DIDN'T try to kill his nephew. He exiled himself because of his own failings, contemplating the murder (remember, he came to his senses before going through with it) was enough to break him and lose faith in the Jedi.

Again, IMO Johnson did a great job with Luke being handed to him as a weary hermit. I think it was a mistake to do that with Luke, but Johnson told a great story given the circumstance.

When a character's defining trait is his eternal optimism even when everyone else is telling him the opposite...

Since when is that Luke's defining characteristic? That almost seems more like Rey's defining characteristic. Luke failed in Empire because he didn't believe. And even in Jedi, he DID duel Vader and nearly killed him. He had to overcome the hate and choose defiance and sacrifice instead. Making TLJ a story about him rediscovering his connection to the Force doesn't compromise that.

EDIT: Howler points out why my first statement is wrong. The rest of my point stands IMO.

 

[Lyst]

One obviously you can prevent the suffering of many, the other the damage was done and he was an old man.

Also. When you are younger, you have way more ambitions and virtues and ideals. These often fade through the years into old age. Reality sets in so to say.

 

[MD13]

Luke DIDN'T try to kill his nephew. He exiled himself because of his own failings, contemplating the murder (remember, he came to his senses before going through with it) was enough to break him and lose faith in the Jedi.

Again, IMO Johnson did a great job with Luke being handed to him as a weary hermit. I think it was a mistake to do that with Luke, but Johnson told a great story given the circumstance.



Since when is that Luke's defining characteristic? That almost seems more like Rey's defining characteristic. Luke failed in Empire because he didn't believe. And even in Jedi, he DID duel Vader and nearly killed him. He had to overcome the hate and choose defiance and sacrifice instead. Making TLJ a story about him rediscovering his connection to the Force doesn't compromise that.

Seriously? I'll let Mark Hamill take it from here:

“The fact that Luke says, ‘I only know one truth. It’s time for the Jedi to end…’ I mean, that’s a pretty amazing statement for someone who was the symbol of hope and optimism in the original films,”- Mark Hamill via EW

 

[-Akronite-]

Seriously? I'll let Mark Hamill take it from here:

Fair point. What I mean is, just because someone is optimistic, doesn't mean that they/their optimism don't fail.

It is true that there is a stark contrast between Luke in the OT and where they take him in the new trilogy. Absolutely. But does that mean he's no longer allowed to fail? That is to say, when we've already seen the "symbol of hope and optimism" show range in his feelings (like my Empire and Jedi examples), why does it become impossible to accept that in the new movie?

EDIT: In the new trilogy, Luke is still seen as a symbol of hope. Finding him is supposed to be some savior moment. But he's hidden away because he isn't that guy and he doesn't feel that he can actually help in a meaningful way. His arc brings him back to being that symbol of hope as he helps the resistance escape and he finishes his story on his own terms.

EDIT2: It comes down to whether you found his change in character believable. This movie sold it better than I expected, but you and many others didn't find it convincing. Got my head in a pretzel going through all these Star Wars debates, I need to stop it.

 

[MD13]

Fair point. What I mean is, just because someone is optimistic, doesn't mean that they/their optimism don't fail.

It is true that there is a stark contrast between Luke in the OT and where they take him in the new trilogy. Absolutely. But does that mean he's no longer allowed to fail? That is to say, when we've already seen the "symbol of hope and optimism" show range in his feelings (like my Empire and Jedi examples), why does it become impossible to accept that in the new movie?

EDIT: In the new trilogy, Luke is still seen as a symbol of hope. Finding him is supposed to be some savior moment. But he's hidden away because he isn't that guy and he doesn't feel that he can actually help in a meaningful way. His arc brings him back to being that symbol of hope as he helps the resistance escape and he finishes his story on his own terms.

EDIT2: It comes down to whether you found his change in character believable. This movie sold it better than I expected, but you and many others didn't find it convincing. Got my head in a pretzel going through all these Star Wars debates, I need to stop it.

This is basically where we agree to disagree on the matter. I can see how it could have worked, but I thought the storytelling in the movie was overall shit, and a quick 5 minute flashback just didn't do it for me. They could have spent much more time fleshing this out if they didn't waste half the movie on a giant red herring, but I digress...

 

[BMAN]

One obviously you can prevent the suffering of many, the other the damage was done and he was an old man.

Also. When you are younger, you have way more ambitions and virtues and ideals. These often fade through the years into old age. Reality sets in so to say.

And since the damage is done, one would think he should have to answer for his crimes. Just because he’s an old man doesn’t mean shit. He was fine with them blowing up a planet in New Hope as an old man

 

[gourimoko]

Why is it so hard for some to see Luke become a grumpy old hermit that does not want to be bothered? Obi Wan became one, Yoda became one, hell, Mark Hammill himself became one.

Hmm.. Would you really call Obi Wan grumpy and not wanting to be bothered? I didn't get that sense about him; as he was known to the locals and Luke had no fear or trepidation about going to see him ... Yoda may have been grumpy, certainly, but that was mostly a front that was dropped once Luke found out who he really was... it was a way of testing Luke. Yoda turned out to be exceptionally friendly after that point.

Luke was different on Ahch To.. He was literally telling Rey to go away; even after she told him about billions of people dying.... I understand how one could potentially come to an ethical decision regarding pacifism and non-violence -- I get that's possible; but, that doesn't seem to be Luke's motive here.

Instead, his is more of self-doubt and concern that he has no right to interfere in the happenings of the galaxy because the Force gives him some kind of unfair advantage; thus, imposing his will over others, even the First Order, would somehow be immoral? But that's a somewhat dubious proposition, IMHO, and doesn't really seem to hold water with the audience, especially since it hasn't really been fleshed out.

& In his old age he saw what Vader did, murdered almost every force user in the galaxy, enforced tyrannical terror, etc etc. He foresaw the same shit happening in Kylo Ren (WHICH CAME TO FRUITION) and in a moment of weakness tried to do something about it.

Really not that hard to understand.

It's hard to understand simply because it goes against the end of Return of the Jedi where Anakin was redeemed by killing the Emperor and bringing balance to the Force. One could argue that Anakin had a lot to answer for; and you'd get no argument from me -- but that, in the end, he saw the error of his ways, and paid the ultimate price he could while trying to set things right once and for all.

It's also odd because we're led to believe that things were mostly okay initially, and that Luke still began a New Jedi Academy of students; so, there was an extensive period of time where Luke didn't hold these views. So the turning point for him was seeing his nephew turning to the dark side of the Force -- but without discussion, confrontation, or any sort of loving intervention from Luke, Leia, and Han; he simply decided to murder his nephew in his sleep?

I dunno ... I mean ... I just cannot see that from Luke Skywalker, and I agree with Mark Hamill when he says he just couldn't see his character doing any of the things we see Luke doing in TLJ. It just doesn't fit with how we've come to understand this character over the past 40 years.

 

[MD13]

Hmm.. Would you really call Obi Wan grumpy and not wanting to be bothered? I didn't get that sense about him; as he was known to the locals and Luke had no fear or trepidation about going to see him ... Yoda may have been grumpy, certainly, but that was mostly a front that was dropped once Luke found out who he really was... it was a way of testing Luke. Yoda turned out to be exceptionally friendly after that point.

Luke was different on Ahch To.. He was literally telling Rey to go away; even after she told him about billions of people dying.... I understand how one could potentially come to an ethical decision regarding pacifism and non-violence -- I get that's possible; but, that doesn't seem to be Luke's motive here.

Instead, his is more of self-doubt and concern that he has no right to interfere in the happenings of the galaxy because the Force gives him some kind of unfair advantage; thus, imposing his will over others, even the First Order, would somehow be immoral? But that's a somewhat dubious proposition, IMHO, and doesn't really seem to hold water with the audience, especially since it hasn't really been fleshed out.



It's hard to understand simply because it goes against the end of Return of the Jedi where Anakin was redeemed by killing the Emperor and bringing balance to the Force. One could argue that Anakin had a lot to answer for; and you'd get no argument from me -- but that, in the end, he saw the error of his ways, and paid the ultimate price he could while trying to set things right once and for all.

It's also odd because we're led to believe that things were mostly okay initially, and that Luke still began a New Jedi Academy of students; so, there was an extensive period of time where Luke didn't hold these views. So the turning point for him was seeing his nephew turning to the dark side of the Force -- but without discussion, confrontation, or any sort of loving intervention from Luke, Leia, and Han; he simply decided to murder his nephew in his sleep?

I dunno ... I mean ... I just cannot see that from Luke Skywalker, and I agree with Mark Hamill when he says he just couldn't see his character doing any of the things we see Luke doing in TLJ. It just doesn't fit with how we've come to understand this character over the past 40 years.

I think where we're both coming from is that the sudden change isn't earned, like a lot of other things in the movie. Some of the greatest stories in both TVs and movies have been either a redemption arc or breaking bad-esque fall from grace. Thing is, those stories will show all the little turning points along the way, all the places where if something happened just a bit differently, maybe he would have ended up differently.

Instead we get a dream and suddenly he's thrown away literally everything he believes in without a second thought before trying to cut his nephew in half. If you're going to turn Luke into a completely different character, you have to sell it a lot better than the film did.

 

[macbdog]

I've known very hopeful, faith-filled people who over time were broken. Its not a stretch to think a young man who saw the things he had seen could become spiritually broken. Maybe if Johnson did something poorly, it was by not making Luke the obvious allegory for the post-rebellion universe: where after the fall of the empire, discord and chaos overwhelmed and nothing of good was really accomplished by the sacrifice. Kind of like a couple areas in the world today. What I found not annoying was Hamill's acting, but then again I've never found him to be a good one.

I'm more angry at Johnson for the silly chase plot and that awful purplehaired general who was brutally incompetent.

 

[gourimoko]

I think where we're both coming from is that the sudden change isn't earned, like a lot of other things in the movie. Some of the greatest stories in both TVs and movies have been either a redemption arc or breaking bad-esque fall from grace. Thing is, those stories will show all the little turning points along the way, all the places where if something happened just a bit differently, maybe he would have ended up differently.

Instead we get a dream and suddenly he's thrown away literally everything he believes in without a second thought before trying to cut his nephew in half. If you're going to turn Luke into a completely different character, you have to sell it a lot better than the film did.

I agree completely.

Johnson and Abrams seem both allergic to the idea of having substantial exposition in their films, whether that be explicit, indirect exposition through worldbuilding, or what have you -- they just are not in the habit or practice of building up stories in a traditional manner. Instead, they seem to feel more comfortable just beginning the story and running with it, leaving any explanation for the motivations, happenings, or occurances in the movie to the imagination of the audience, whether or not they make sense to an objective observer.

And I think the problem with this narrative style is that it wholly relies on the audience understanding the mindset of the director/writer on their own, without any explanation, or even effort, on the part of the writing staff or the director. This is a double-edged sword because while it frees the director from needing to think through particular plot points to make them coherent; simultaneously, it removes the incentive and responsibility of the director to present a fully self-consistent story because any inconsistencies can be absolved by the mystery box device.

We saw this problem throughout The Force Awakens. The Last Jedi would instead spend no more than single moment, a sentence or two, in explaining entire character motivations, entire plot points, entire plot devices that are required to make the whole of the story make sense.

For example, the plot device about Star Destroyers now being able to track ships through hyperspace. The plot device about running out of fuel. The plot device about needing a code cracker. These all seem very artificial, haphazard, and almost infantile in their creativity. For a film of this scope, the 8th Star Wars mainline story; one would think Rian Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy could have come up with a better overall story -- and yet, they didn't.

Ultimately, we see that The Last Jedi is probably going to be regarded as the worst of the Star Wars films simply because it was poorly thought out, poorly executed, and didn't seem to have the same grand direction as any of the previous movies, including The Force Awakens.

TLJ is so shocking because the criticisms of The Force Awakens seem to have completely steered Rian Johnson to totally abandon Star Wars in general, even the themes and emotional narrative in their entirety. This simply did not feel like a Star Wars movie -- and I don't think that's a controversial thing to say; I think most viewers felt the same way. So as Hamill says, this is more like relay-race directing, and there's no overall arc to this story; well, that's really really poor direction at this point and that squarely falls on Kathleen Kennedy's shoulders.

The only hope there is for change is that Disney recognizes The Last Jedi likely left between $250M and $500M on the table by being so poorly received by audiences. If Disney is listening to fans, one would hope we won't see another film like TLJ going forward.

Lastly, as odd as it sounds, I do think there needs to be some kind of reconciliation between Lucas and Disney. Lucas being shunned by Disney and Abrams has, IMHO, destroyed Star Wars as a franchise that I actually give a damn about. This new Star Wars universe is frankly an absurdity; lacking any depth or a world many people actually care about. I don't know anyone actually invested in the stories of these characters or who cares about Rey, Finn or Poe.

These films are really coming off very much like the Star Trek reboots before them; all of which turned out to be nothing more than money grabs. I mean, does anyone actually remember the first Star Trek reboot movie? Like, not seeing it, but, the plot, the story, the characters... does anyone care about that universe? The first chance they got for a TV series they just discarded it entirely and it's massively improved as a result.

I think that speaks volumes.

And I think if you gathered a group of Star Wars fans in a room and asked them "should the next Star Wars trilogy be about Rey or Revan," and even "would you toss out all of the proposed Star Wars films for a single trilogy set in the KOTOR universe?" I don't think that would bode well for Kennedy, Abrams and Johnson's story and production thus far.

 

[MD13]

I agree completely.

Johnson and Abrams seem both allergic to the idea of having substantial exposition in their films, whether that be explicit, indirect exposition through worldbuilding, or what have you -- they just are not in the habit or practice of building up stories in a traditional manner. Instead, they seem to feel more comfortable just beginning the story and running with it, leaving any explanation for the motivations, happenings, or occurances in the movie to the imagination of the audience, whether or not they make sense to an objective observer.

And I think the problem with this narrative style is that it wholly relies on the audience understanding the mindset of the director/writer on their own, without any explanation, or even effort, on the part of the writing staff or the director. This is a double-edged sword because while it frees the director from needing to think through particular plot points to make them coherent; simultaneously, it removes the incentive and responsibility of the director to present a fully self-consistent story because any inconsistencies can be absolved by the mystery box device.

We saw this problem throughout The Force Awakens. The Last Jedi would instead spend no more than single moment, a sentence or two, in explaining entire character motivations, entire plot points, entire plot devices that are required to make the whole of the story make sense.

For example, the plot device about Star Destroyers now being able to track ships through hyperspace. The plot device about running out of fuel. The plot device about needing a code cracker. These all seem very artificial, haphazard, and almost infantile in their creativity. For a film of this scope, the 8th Star Wars mainline story; one would think Rian Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy could have come up with a better overall story -- and yet, they didn't.

Ultimately, we see that The Last Jedi is probably going to be regarded as the worst of the Star Wars films simply because it was poorly thought out, poorly executed, and didn't seem to have the same grand direction as any of the previous movies, including The Force Awakens.

TLJ is so shocking because the criticisms of The Force Awakens seem to have completely steered Rian Johnson to totally abandon Star Wars in general, even the themes and emotional narrative in their entirety. This simply did not feel like a Star Wars movie -- and I don't think that's a controversial thing to say; I think most viewers felt the same way. So as Hamill says, this is more like relay-race directing, and there's no overall arc to this story; well, that's really really poor direction at this point and that squarely falls on Kathleen Kennedy's shoulders.

The only hope there is for change is that Disney recognizes The Last Jedi likely left between $250M and $500M on the table by being so poorly received by audiences. If Disney is listening to fans, one would hope we won't see another film like TLJ going forward.

Lastly, as odd as it sounds, I do think there needs to be some kind of reconciliation between Lucas and Disney. Lucas being shunned by Disney and Abrams has, IMHO, destroyed Star Wars as a franchise that I actually give a damn about. This new Star Wars universe is frankly an absurdity; lacking any depth or a world many people actually care about. I don't know anyone actually invested in the stories of these characters or who cares about Rey, Finn or Poe.

These films are really coming off very much like the Star Trek reboots before them; all of which turned out to be nothing more than money grabs. I mean, does anyone actually remember the first Star Trek reboot movie? Like, not seeing it, but, the plot, the story, the characters... does anyone care about that universe? The first chance they got for a TV series they just discarded it entirely and it's massively improved as a result.

I think that speaks volumes.

And I think if you gathered a group of Star Wars fans in a room and asked them "should the next Star Wars trilogy be about Rey or Revan," and even "would you toss out all of the proposed Star Wars films for a single trilogy set in the KOTOR universe?" I don't think that would bode well for Kennedy, Abrams and Johnson's story and production thus far.

Do you really think this will happen? My opinion is that they'll look at the smooth filming process for this film and the RT score, then chalk the mixed reviews up to "haters" and go full steam ahead. I mean, they already gave him carte blanche on his own trilogy.

 

[Lyst]

I dunno ... I mean ... I just cannot see that from Luke Skywalker, and I agree with Mark Hamill when he says he just couldn't see his character doing any of the things we see Luke doing in TLJ. It just doesn't fit with how we've come to understand this character over the past 40 years.

I'm not going to comment on everything you said, because I really don't feel like quoting movies all day. Suffice it to say, Yoda and Ben Kenobi both went to places where they were extremely hard to find. Dagobah for many years, and Tatooine for many years. Thus they both did not want to be bothered by the inter-workings of the Galaxy, politics, wars, etc. They both were hermits and both needed to be sought out in order to find them. Same with Luke Skywalker in TLJ.


Everyone experiences changes in their life. This first time we now are understanding Cannon Luke Skywalker as an old man- his evolution. It is what it is, this is who he became. I'm not going to fight and disagree with everything that's happening, i'll just take it for what it is. A character evolution.

For me TFA was completely atrocious. TLJ on the other hand was watchable and enjoyable. And i've been a SW freak my whole life. Gave up on trying to understand why people are doing what they are doing to this franchise.

 

[gourimoko]

Do you really think this will happen? My opinion is that they'll look at the smooth filming process for this film and the RT score, then chalk the mixed reviews up to "haters" and go full steam ahead. I mean, they already gave him carte blanche on his own trilogy.

I think he got that go ahead immediately after the weekend opening. I could see benchmarks in his contract being set at $220M+ and an RT score of 85% or better.

Had they waited, they would've seen the 49% shit RT audience score, and the far-below expected domestic gross returns on the film. TLJ coming in at $610B domestic compared to TFA which was $900B+ speaks volumes; and I'm sure Disney, Johnson and Kennedy were aware of the criticism from TFA -- hell, Hamill and Lucas made their thoughts exceptionally clear.

Now people are looking at these two films and thinking "well damn, they actually managed to make two movies worse than the prequels?!" As @King Stannis said, The Last Jedi is probably the only Star Wars film I will not actually buy for my collection -- it's that bad. The Force Awakens was more or less only worth watching because of it being the first movie in a decade; but as @The Human Q-Tip pointed out, the movie is just blatantly robbing the original trilogy - so it's hard to justify calling it a success, since it's just a reboot of A New Hope with some Empire sprinkled in.

So in saying all of this, I think at some point a Disney executive will ask: are we potentially losing billions of dollars by having Kathleen and Johnson fuck up our biggest franchise? And if Episode 9 underperforms as The Last Jedi did, and if Solo flops, I think there will be a major shakeup at Disney and I could see Kennedy, Johnson and Abrams all getting the boot.

 

[MD13]

I think he got that go ahead immediately after the weekend opening. I could see benchmarks in his contract being set at $220M+ and an RT score of 85% or better.

Had they waited, they would've seen the 49% shit RT audience score, and the far-below expected domestic gross returns on the film. TLJ coming in at $610B domestic compared to TFA which was $900B+ speaks volumes; and I'm sure Disney, Johnson and Kennedy were aware of the criticism from TFA -- hell, Hamill and Lucas made their thoughts exceptionally clear.

Now people are looking at these two films and thinking "well damn, they actually managed to make two movies worse than the prequels?!" As @King Stannis said, The Last Jedi is probably the only Star Wars film I will not actually buy for my collection -- it's that bad. The Force Awakens was more or less only worth watching because of it being the first movie in a decade; but as @The Human Q-Tip pointed out, the movie is just blatantly robbing the original trilogy - so it's hard to justify calling it a success, since it's just a reboot of A New Hope with some Empire sprinkled in.

So in saying all of this, I think at some point a Disney executive will ask: are we potentially losing billions of dollars by having Kathleen and Johnson fuck up our biggest franchise? And if Episode 9 underperforms as The Last Jedi did, and if Solo flops, I think there will be a major shakeup at Disney and I could see Kennedy, Johnson and Abrams all getting the boot.

I really hope so... I'm just skeptical. I think it'll take episode 9 falling short as well as Rian's first of the trilogy before they even think about it. I know I personally won't watch episode 9 right away like I did episode 7-8. I'll probably wait a while and duck in here and read the reviews from all of you that view the series like I do before giving them money after the disappointment of 7 and 8.

But I will say they're on a tight rope regarding episode 10. If they think Rey, Finn, and Poe will elicit the emotional response, loyalty and $$$ that Luke, Leia, and Han did, they're in for a rude awakening. They're all just a big *blah* for me.