The Transgender Issue

[Wrathe]

You say this but it's not true in the real world.

The gay movement was criticized for YEARS for being too in your face and forceful. But it's worked. The Civil Rights movement was similar. Was the Civil War organic change?

You don't make change by compromising from the get-go and staying quiet.

EDIT: It takes time to change someone's mind, but you can't go person to person easing your way toward acceptance. You move forward and let those people catch up when they're ready.

You really think things like interracial couples happened because someone caged 2 folks of diverse race and said, ok, now...fall in love!

Those things are organic. You can't throw the Iranian President in a room w/ Nethanyu and expect them to come out with a world peace solution cause you told them they couldn't leave until they worked it out. That change, too, would be organic. To your point, yes, in history, we've provided a nudge.

Also, just some advice, never use the fact it worked as justification for repeating a shitty method. I'll tell you, in me, that just makes me wanna say, oops, made a mistake before, not again! Know what I mean?

 

[-Akronite-]

You really think things like interracial couples happened because someone caged 2 folks of diverse race and said, ok, now...fall in love!

Those things are organic. You can't throw the Iranian President in a room w/ Nethanyu and expect them to come out with a world peace solution cause you told them they couldn't leave until they worked it out. That change, too, would be organic. To your point, yes, in history, we've provided a nudge.

Also, just some advice, never use the fact it worked as justification for repeating a shitty method. I'll tell you, in me, that just makes me wanna say, oops, made a mistake before, not again! Know what I mean?

This is just a semantic argument of what we categorize as organic versus forced.

To go back to the original point: David claimed that change is organic and not forced.

My claim against that is that every instance of major change, especially in regards to civil rights and minority matters, have not been organic because that shit doesn't happen on its own. If black people didn't march, if gay people didn't parade, etc. nothing gets done. Racists and homophobes don't just slowly come to their senses. Gay marriage didn't just happen. It took years of making a concerted effort to increase gay awareness and acceptance. Getting gay roles on TV to normalize it. Having gay politicians push for change. Making demonstrations at court houses. And now that gay acceptance is basically regarded as common human decency, the LGBT community is pushing toward trans equality. This has not been an organic process.

I'm not saying everything can be accomplished with force or that every individual is going to like the strong methods, but strength works. Telling an old cranky dude that he's transphobic for calling Caitlin Jenner a man won't accomplish shit, sure. But if trans people decide to quiet down like they are told to, they will end up with nothing.

 

[Man Called X]

This is just a semantic argument of what we categorize as organic versus forced.

To go back to the original point: David claimed that change is organic and not forced.

My claim against that is that every instance of major change, especially in regards to civil rights and minority matters, have not been organic because that shit doesn't happen on its own. If black people didn't march, if gay people didn't parade, etc. nothing gets done. Racists and homophobes don't just slowly come to their senses. Gay marriage didn't just happen. It took years of making a concerted effort to increase gay awareness and acceptance. Getting gay roles on TV to normalize it. Having gay politicians push for change. Making demonstrations at court houses. And now that gay acceptance is basically regarded as common human decency, the LGBT community is pushing toward trans equality. This has not been an organic process.

I'm not saying everything can be accomplished with force or that every individual is going to like the strong methods, but strength works. Telling an old cranky dude that he's transphobic for calling Caitlin Jenner a man won't accomplish shit, sure. But if trans people decide to quiet down like they are told to, they will end up with nothing.

WHAT DO TRANS PEOPLE ACTUALLY WANT?!?

The group itself can't even come to a conclusion, how the fuck am I supposed to?

 

[David.]

WHAT DO TRANS PEOPLE ACTUALLY WANT?!?

The group itself can't even come to a conclusion, how the fuck am I supposed to?

I dont think they want to be paraded around and used as political devices. Not that theyre a monolith, but they dont particularly tend to like to have attention called to their situation. To think you speak for everyone of a race, gender etc is remarkable and narcissistic. Its also just not accurate.

But this goes back to defining if you want 1. Science 2. Acceptance or 3. Rights and they sure do seem to move that goal around as the discussion changes bc the arguments dont stand on their own under scrutiny

 

[Wrathe]

This is just a semantic argument of what we categorize as organic versus forced.

To go back to the original point: David claimed that change is organic and not forced.

My claim against that is that every instance of major change, especially in regards to civil rights and minority matters, have not been organic because that shit doesn't happen on its own. If black people didn't march, if gay people didn't parade, etc. nothing gets done. Racists and homophobes don't just slowly come to their senses. Gay marriage didn't just happen. It took years of making a concerted effort to increase gay awareness and acceptance. Getting gay roles on TV to normalize it. Having gay politicians push for change. Making demonstrations at court houses. And now that gay acceptance is basically regarded as common human decency, the LGBT community is pushing toward trans equality. This has not been an organic process.

I'm not saying everything can be accomplished with force or that every individual is going to like the strong methods, but strength works. Telling an old cranky dude that he's transphobic for calling Caitlin Jenner a man won't accomplish shit, sure. But if trans people decide to quiet down like they are told to, they will end up with nothing.

I gave you examples disagreeing w/ that premise, including one that would be viewed as a civil rights win and progress in America but you waved your hands and called it semantics, then came back and reclaimed that civil rights advancements come from forced change.

I'm sorry, I'm not following you, but I'll just wave my hand and call your position bullshit too and now it doesn't matter, damn this is easy.

If you approve of "force" for your position, surely you're OK w/ an equal amount of force from those who disagree w/ your stance?

 

[David.]

I gave you examples disagreeing w/ that premise, including one that would be viewed as a civil rights win and progress in America but you waved your hands and called it semantics, then came back and reclaimed that civil rights advancements come from forced change.

I'm sorry, I'm not following you, but I'll just wave my hand and call your position bullshit too and now it doesn't matter, damn this is easy.

If you approve of "force" for your position, surely you're OK w/ an equal amount of force from those who disagree w/ your stance?

i dont understand how people dont see the rise of authoritarianism in the progressive movement and the socialist movement, and regression of our society by dividing everyone.

want to talk about wrong side of history? start with authoritarianism.

simple as that. youre getting behind letting the state force you what to think and what to do. youre advocating it and voting for it. its not always going to be your side. dress it up as trans rights, but you want authoritarianism. punch a 'nazi' in the face because you think he believes something he doesnt? ok, punch a progressive in the face. hows that sound?

im sure people mean well, but theyre pushing tyranny and using 'being nice' as a vehicle.

 

[Wrathe]

punch a 'nazi' in the face because you think he believes something he doesnt? ok, punch a progressive in the face. hows that sound?

Oh dear, for the love of all that is good in humanity, can we please let this issue die?

 

[David.]

And MLK went to jail and was shot for his cause. It's not like he didn't ruffle feathers and just let change happen organically.

mlk was shot because he moved to class issues after his accomplishments in civil rights.

Don't know what you're saying here.

Unless you have compromise, you have tyranny and slavery. do you want tyranny and slavery? or do you concede that you want compromise? By accepting the premise of force, you open up YOURSELF to potentially be the slave. Theres nothing that says youre on the winning side, and certainly not forever. Your opponent is just as convinced theyre right as youre convinced youre right.

The world isnt all or nothing, and trying to force other people to agree with you "or else" isnt a great philosophy. Its repugnant. People arent going to accept that. Theyre not going to accept your tyranny, and if you treat conversation as conquest rather than compromise, people are going ro react as they would to a conquest.

Not to mention theres about a 50% chance that you're simply wrong. Thats a pretty aggressive stance to take based on those odds. Youd almost have to have not considered it.

Acceptance led to marriage equality. Now what led to acceptance? Did gay people sit quietly in their West Village apartments until everybody was cool with them? Or were they active and loud and forceful?

people didn't by happenstance vote to aknowledge gay marriage while actively hating gay people.

Widespread acceptance and favorability logically precedes legislation.


Its equivalent to a first date. You could have made up your mind that you want to a make a move. If shes not ready yet, you cant just force your move, thats rape. But if you talk a little bit more, you could convince her. And if you never do, then you're the one who's wrong, you dont get your way.

(Clip)

BECAUSE things are nuanced, we dont make radical, sweeping changes to the core of society like 'what it means to be a male and what it means to be a female". this is the entire discussion. LISTEN to it instead of assigning motive and discarding it as lack of compassion or "transphobia". We care about victims too. No one on earth probably, is irrationally scared of trans people. We just consider the consequence of whats being pushed and can look at it reasonably. By over empathizing with one victim, you limit your ability to do that, and to realize youre creating more.

Except it's not. Again, from civil rights to gay rights, THEY WEREN'T QUIET. Are trans people being any more forceful than blacks in the 60s?

no, TRANS people arent. The left is however, and theyre using violence, force, censorship, public shaming, and getting people fired to achieve political ends. Thats scary shit posing as empathy and love and social progress. Fascism, authoritarianism, terrorism, take your pick. The titles only important if you want to study how that philosophy turns out, you can just look around and see how dangerous it is.

No, that's an actual safety concern. What's unsafe about letting a law-abiding trans person use the bathroom of their identity?

youre promoting authoritarianism. You want to give the state the power to tell us what to do and think and feel. Youre putting fallon fox in the ring with women and having her beat the shit out of them. youre giving men an angle to be predators in the bathroom.

These are all actual safety concerns that result from this agenda. This isnt letting gay people marry each other. Theres legitimate consequence.

You're hilarious.

Edit: ill save it. Ya gotta watch out for treating people differently based on their race or sex or some part of their ethnicity etc, and not favor one group of people over another group of people, or treat them any differently because of it. That philosophy is fundamentally problematic.

PS: You're MLK comment is BS.

did he want people jugded on the color of their skin? or the content of their character? which side are YOU on? The man would shed a tear if he was alive to see identity politics. Its divisive and the consequences are counterproductive to slogans like "black lives matter".

 

[David.]

Oh dear, for the love of all that is good in humanity, can we please let this issue die?

With all due respect, is every post you reply to me with going to be a lecture? Its getting old.

 

[Man Called X]

Still want to know what trans people want.

You're allowed to turn yourself into a man or a woman. You're allowed to turn yourself into a lizard or cat person.

You can marry whoever you want.

WHAT RIGHTS ARE BEING INFRINGED UPON?

Because I won't add a cis to every pronoun? What the fuck does that shit even mean?

Do you want a 3rd gender that we lump everyone into?

I'm legitimately curious because I still have yet to see what the trannies are all up in arms about.

 

[Wrathe]

With all due respect, is every post you reply to me with going to be a lecture? Its getting old.

OMG! Is this the Ricky Bobby with all due respect example in real life? I love that movie!

It was tongue in cheek humor in how "punching a nazi in the face" is a trope that keeps popping up in every political thread. I even put a smiley face on it to say it's meant as a joke.

So with all due respect get the fuck over yourself, smile, and have a Coke.

 

[David.]

OMG! Is this the Ricky Bobby with all due respect example in real life? I love that movie!

It was tongue in cheek humor in how "punching a nazi in the face" is a trope that keeps popping up in every political thread. I even put a smiley face on it to say it's meant as a joke.

So with all due respect get the fuck over yourself, smile, and have a Coke.

Its 5 posts in a row. Im asking if you're going to stop. Its every communication you have had with me. Can you see where im coming from? Is that an unreasonable request?

 

[Wrathe]

Its 5 posts in a row. Im asking if you're going to stop. Its every communication you have had with me. Can you see where im coming from? Is that an unreasonable request?

Joking with you? That's the great offense? Ya, sure though, so do I not respond to you at all, just not use sarcasm when I respond to you, or maybe YOU have a special pronoun you'd like used when addressing you. What exactly is the protocol?

 

[David.]

Joking with you? That's the great offense? Ya, sure though, so do I not respond to you at all, just not use sarcasm when I respond to you, or maybe YOU have a special pronoun you'd like used when addressing you. What exactly is the protocol?

Sorry i didnt think "can we stop talking about that" was funny. Tongue out emojis normally do it every time.

I shouldn't have directly communicated a concern with you. Just let me know how many times you can do it before i can.

 

[Wrathe]

Sorry i didnt think "can we stop talking about that" was funny. Tongue out emojis normally do it every time.

I shouldn't have directly communicated a concern with you. Just let me know how many times you can do it before i can.

Nah man, directly communicating with me is via the private conversation function of the forums. This..wasn't that, had you, I'd have just explained to you how it was in jest, not personal, and to relax a bit, it's all good.

My preachy posts to you in the past have been the same as they were to Notorious. Trying to keep ya from the edge when you're bound and determined to dance on it. Oh, and a crucifix joke after you nailed yourself on one quite nicely. If I recall, you even liked that response.

Seriously, you like pretty much every post I put up in here, are you so bored that no one has engaged you on a personal level that you've decided to cannibalize the first thing that LOOKS like a personal affront?

Godspeed man. If you seriously want some "arrangement" worked out regarding my posting patterns and yours, let me know. Otherwise, I'll just assume you're a bit out of sorts tonight and let ya sleep on it.