The Trump Administration (just Trump) Thread

[gourimoko]

The comments weren’t racist. They were said in private.

They were said to the representatives of several states and districts, from both parties. That's in the workplace, and not necessarily considered "private." There's no obligation for those statements to remain between the parties who attended, particularly if those comments would be considered as offensive as many people have obviously perceived them to be.

Have you not refered to better places as a shithole?

I've said far worse in my time; that doesn't make it right.

So whatever reason our relationship has deteriorated is irrelevant to this discussion, and is certainly not something that should be discussed publicly.

Fair enough, but I just think you're going down a rabbit hole that I've seen people go down and it's tough to come back from.

As far as my political leaning I have always considered myself in the middle, but the lunacy of the left, and me calling it out has made my appear to be more conservative than I actually am.

You're talking about the "regressive left" stuff?

All that may be fine and well; hell, I'll accept that some parts of the left are "regressive." Now, can you also be big enough to acknowledge that what the President said is not only ignorant and outrageous, but given the pattern on display here over the past several years, seems to suggest a racist motivation?

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

But even if you give his comments the most charitable interpretation, I also disagree with the notion that we should prefer wealthier and more educated immigrants to those who may be poorer and less educated. There’s something un-American about that.

We obviously have a fundamental disagreement there.

Nor does it matter one bit that immigrants come from a democracy - I actually can’t think of a more meaningless criteria than that. Nobody who comes here is trying to change the United States to a monarchy or a dictatorship. If anything many come here to escape oppressive forms of government. How soon we forget that many Americans are descendants of immigrants who left monarchies in Europe and elsewhere? Should they have been denied because they weren't coming from democracies?

Let me ask you this -- do you think people that come to this country generally bring with them any of the culture of dominant beliefs, political or otherwise, of their home country? Or are all immigrants completely fungible, regardless of from where they came?

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Personally, my reaction was: "Great, this asshole said something else stupid and racist.

Precisely.

 

[ACisKING]

No, you're missing the point. There are two issues here. One is whether Trump should have said what he said.

The second issue is the motivations of those who apparently spend every waking hour attacking him. Are they motivated by love of country, or simply by a desire to destroy someone they don't like? That is relevant here because apparently at least one Senator played a role in leaking and/or confirming this. And whether or not senior elected officials are motivated primarily by love of country, or by someone else, is also a relevant inquiry.

Even if you personally don't care.

Or to put it differently...was the reaction to this from the left "oh no, I wish he wouldn't have said that" or "This is fantastic! We now have something else on which we can attack him!" Again, that's focusing on the observations that this is damaging U.S. foreign relations.

I genuinely think its more the former than the latter. It’s not like the left or any Trump critic lacks enough material to criticize Trump with. What’s one more thing going to add at this point. But I can tell you that as an American I do feel embarassed by a president that is both dumb enough and shortsighted enough to make those comments. It’s beyond politcs - it’s just such a bad look for our country.

 

[gourimoko]

Let me ask you this -- do you think people that come to this country generally bring with them any of the culture of dominant beliefs, political or otherwise, of their home country? Or are all immigrants completely fungible, regardless of from where they came?

Sure, they bring with them their cultural background and beliefs and that's what makes immigration a positive benefit to our American society.

 

[TyGuy]

They were said to the representatives of several states and districts, from both parties. That's in the workplace, and not necessarily considered "private." There's no obligation for those statements to remain between the parties who attended, particularly if those comments would be considered as offensive as many people have obviously perceived them to be.



I've said far worse in my time; that doesn't make it right.



Fair enough, but I just think you're going down a rabbit hole that I've seen people go down and it's tough to come back from.



You're talking about the "regressive left" stuff?

All that may be fine and well; hell, I'll accept that some parts of the left are "regressive." Now, can you also be big enough to acknowledge that what the President said is not only ignorant and outrageous, but given the pattern on display here over the past several years, seems to suggest a racist motivation?

I’m not going to rip people for something they said in private. People say wat worse shit in private. It’s just how it is. Everybody can be made out to be a giant asshole if things we said in private were leaked.

 

[Jack Brickman]

Precisely.

I think you misread. The great was not a "this is awesome" great. It was a "for fuck's sake" sigh of a great.

 

[billmac91]

Trump was wrong on this and I believe he should apologize.

My wife is West African, I've been to West Africa multiple times, and it's a beautiful place. Are crime rates higher? Yes. Is there more poverty? Yes. Is the infrastructure poor? Yes.

But by and large, the people you meet are significantly friendlier, appreciative, and hard working than the average American, IMO. That's a general observation, but I believe it to be true. On top of that, even the poorest of people often know multiple languages, and exhibit a level of intelligence you don't often find here in the states. I'm just trying to illustrate a point, but imagine going to a trailer park or poor inner city, and meeting a 12 year old who can speak English, French, and a local dialect all fluently.

Also, when you factor in the condition of West Africa, and more broadly the continent of Africa, to call it a "shithole" is ignorant of why it is that way today.

The last point I'd make, and AZ had already brought it up, but the immigrants from West Africa to the US would have to be seen as a net positive to our country. The level of education is generally higher than the average American.

So, anyways....it was a really stupid comment. It shows ignorance on multiple levels, one being a lack of appreciation of immigrants who have made a substantial impact in the US, and will in the future, but also one of the common irritants of many people from individual countries in Africa, to lump them all in together and call the collective continent a "shithole". And I think about the many friends, family, and others I have met while on my visits to Ghana, and I'm embarrassed our President has just essentially called their homes a "shithole". I can't defend that....

 

[Cavatt]

Why is the word shithole uncensored on all major media outlets but the word pussy is?

I can actually answer this.

The FCC doesn't allow stuff that refers to the actually literal meaning of the word. So if he had said someone's ass was a shithole, it would be censored. So, pussy referes in fact to a woman's vaginal. IF he had called Billy Bush a pussy, that would not have to be censored.

This was clarified 10 years ago or so when Bono said, "This is fucking brilliant" at the Grammy's because he used it as an emphasizer and it was not referring to actual fucking it was not technically banned.

Most networks and outlets don't allow those words normally for advertisers sake anyway.

 

[Jack Brickman]

I see @TyGuy is moving those goalposts again. Now we're at "it's okay to say reprehensible, racist things so long as they're said in private."

Sad how I'm not even shocked by this shit any more. It's just depressing at this point.

 

[gourimoko]

I’m not going to rip people for something they said in private. People say wat worse shit in private. It’s just how it is. Everybody can be made out to be a giant asshole if things we said in private were leaked.

Fine, but can you answer my last question to you...

I'll play your DPRK hypothetical if you'll just answer that question?

Here I'll go first: no, I wouldn't call North Korea a "shithole," as it's never a wise thing describe someone's home, where they grew up, and where they raised their children as a "shithole." The word I would use instead is "prison." North Korea is a quite literal prison. But that doesn't mean the people living there live in shit in a hole in the ground.

Now, can you understand why many would consider Trump comments to be racist?

 

[TyGuy]

I see @TyGuy is moving those goalposts again. Now we're at "it's okay to say reprehensible, racist things so long as they're said in private."

Sad how I'm not even shocked by this shit any more. It's just depressing at this point.

The goalposts aren’t being moved. These aren’t mutually exclusive things. Haiti can be a shithole and it’s also not right to leak private conversations.

 

[TyGuy]

I want people to name places they refered to as a shithole in their life and let’s compare it to Haiti.

 

[gourimoko]

Trump was wrong on this and I believe he should apologize.

My wife is West African, I've been to West Africa multiple times, and it's a beautiful place. Are crime rates higher? Yes. Is there more poverty? Yes. Is the infrastructure poor? Yes.

But by and large, the people you meet are significantly friendlier, appreciative, and hard working than the average American, IMO. That's a general observation, but I believe it to be true. On top of that, even the poorest of people often know multiple languages, and exhibit a level of intelligence you don't often find here in the states. I'm just trying to illustrate a point, but imagine going to a trailer park or poor inner city, and meeting a 12 year old who can speak English, French, and a local dialect all fluently.

Also, when you factor in the condition of West Africa, and more broadly the continent of Africa, to call it a "shithole" is ignorant of why it is that way today.

The last point I'd make, and AZ had already brought it up, but the immigrants from West Africa to the US would have to be seen as a net positive to our country. The level of education is generally higher than the average American.

So, anyways....it was a really stupid comment. It shows ignorance on multiple levels, one being a lack of appreciation of immigrants who have made a substantial impact in the US, and will in the future, but also one of the common irritants of many people from individual countries in Africa, to lump them all in together and call the collective continent a "shithole". And I think about the many friends, family, and others I have met while on my visits to Ghana, and I'm embarrassed our President has just essentially called their homes a "shithole". I can't defend that....

Thanks Bill...

Again, this speaks to what I was saying before; and this is why I've asked people "have you traveled," "have you been to these places and among these people?"

I wholeheartedly agree with everything here.... And maybe 15 years ago, I would be on the other side of this; but not having been there... Googling the name of a place doesn't do it justice.

 

[Jack Brickman]

The goalposts aren’t being moved. These aren’t mutually exclusive things. Haiti can be a shithole and it’s also not right to leak private conversations.

He's the President of the United States. He should have more tact than to say shit like that in private too, especially when it's not really private at all, but a meeting with a variety of different people from both parties. His job is to represent our country, and he constantly represents our country as a land of racist, sexist, stupid assholes.