Theoretically Ante Zizic

[CTownSportsFan]

Few things here, try to keep up.



#1) Don't try to spar with me or patronize me like that. You'll lose and it makes your already horrible point look even worse when you have to stoop to that garbage.



#2) Yes. J.J. "Stonehands" Hickson. A guy that legitimately would not have had a career if not for LeBron James. LeBron made him into a serviceable big man for a few seasons. Zizic is infinitely more talented than Hickson and LeBron is a better facilitator in 2018 than he was in 2009.

#3) You originally said and I directly quote "He’s stil few years away from being anything more than a 3-4th big on a contending team ." and then when I call you out on that, you then choose to narrow it down to just the Cavaliers to help reinforce your point. Plus, Zizic in three years could easily be better than Larry Nance, if you want to cop yourself out and limit to strictly Cavalier discussion.


Let me give you some advice since you're still new around here: going into threads and posting intentionally antagonizing posts about our two young and highly regarded players, both who have dramatically overachieved despite the best efforts by our coaching staff to limit them.

If you're going to go against the grain, then try to back yourself up a bit better instead of using +/- stats from one game to determine the next three years of a player's career. Stuff like that makes you a laughingstock that nobody here will take seriously.

But you say Zizic is Clearly Oozing with talent . So what is it ? He needs LeBron to lift him up to his potential and wouldn’t fair so well on abithwr team ? Or he’s so damn talented he succeed without LeBron ? Still not sure why you mentioned JJ if Zizic is Oozing all this talent .

Then you go on to mention Zizic could easily be better than Larry Nance in 3 years without much to base this on . Hell, in 3 years Larry Nance could be easily be much better than the Larry you see today but fail to take this in to account because it doesn’t fit your narrative .

Highly rated or not, I see 2 guys who are both light years away from starting on a Championship team. The +/- reference was an attention grabber as it was used several times earlier in the year against Love to devalue his worth to our team.

 

[Mr. MacPhisto]

Gasol was just so skilled on defense in terms of Insticts, quick hands and anticipation... he was also more coordinated.

If Zizic could be a great rim protector I would be happy. I'm still mildly optimistic about his ability to defend on the perimeter with enough reps and practice. We will see, but he lacks coordination and fluidity on that end.

He is very long though and is a good post defender. The way he blocked Felecia's shot last night without even jumping is pretty rare to see.

Not sure how good Gasol was on D when he was 20/21. Marc averaged 3.1 PPG, 2.2 RPG, and .6 BPG in Europe at that age while playing 9 MPG. PER36 was 12.4 PPG, 8.8 RPG, and 2.4 BPG. That was for Liga in the Spanish league, probably the next best league in the world after the NBA. But Zizic is putting up better numbers at the same age in the NBA. I didn't watch Gasol at that age, so I don't know if he was natural defender or if it was something he learned as he matured.

I would be happy if Zizic can be a good rim protector as well. He doesn't have to be Marc Gasol. Frankly, 75% of Marc Gasol is pretty good. Zizic moves well for a big and is just beginning to get comfortable with the NBA speed and athleticism. Perimeter D is the big question mark, but I do agree that he continues to have a chance to develop there.

He's a good rotation player right now. He has the potential to be a good starter at C in the future. It took Varejao 4 seasons to see a lot of time starting for the Cavs, so it can take a few years for Zizic to grow from coming off the bench to starting a significant amount of games, but the potential is there. He's definitely not a scrub.

The challenge will be finding a way to keep LeBron, keep him happy, be in the championship discussion AND develop guys like Osman, Zizic, and whoever the Cavs pick with the Nets pick, if they keep it. There's also the question of keeping Love long term or considering moving him for a couple of different assets - and I like Love and have no problem keeping him.

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

Not sure how good Gasol was on D when he was 20/21. Marc averaged 3.1 PPG, 2.2 RPG, and .6 BPG in Europe at that age while playing 9 MPG. PER36 was 12.4 PPG, 8.8 RPG, and 2.4 BPG. That was for Liga in the Spanish league, probably the next best league in the world after the NBA. But Zizic is putting up better numbers at the same age in the NBA. I didn't watch Gasol at that age, so I don't know if he was natural defender or if it was something he learned as he matured.

I would be happy if Zizic can be a good rim protector as well. He doesn't have to be Marc Gasol. Frankly, 75% of Marc Gasol is pretty good. Zizic moves well for a big and is just beginning to get comfortable with the NBA speed and athleticism. Perimeter D is the big question mark, but I do agree that he continues to have a chance to develop there.

He's a good rotation player right now. He has the potential to be a good starter at C in the future. It took Varejao 4 seasons to see a lot of time starting for the Cavs, so it can take a few years for Zizic to grow from coming off the bench to starting a significant amount of games, but the potential is there. He's definitely not a scrub.

The challenge will be finding a way to keep LeBron, keep him happy, be in the championship discussion AND develop guys like Osman, Zizic, and whoever the Cavs pick with the Nets pick, if they keep it. There's also the question of keeping Love long term or considering moving him for a couple of different assets - and I like Love and have no problem keeping him.

Oh, I agree. I was talking about Gasol as a rookie while disregarding the age difference. Zizic is a better athlete(especially once he gets his conditioning on par), better from end to end as a rim runner(actually has pretty great max speed tbh)...Just that Gasol as a rookie in the NBA was just so impressive on the defensive end.

Also, he is pretty sneaky advanced for his age. He fits the NBA in terms of knowing how to take advantage of the little thing that go unoticed compared to the Euroleague. I saw him hooking Felicio's arm last night on a rebound attempt, he pushes players when refs don't look and he gets under your skin. Very reminiscent of Steven Adams in that sense.

I love Zizic and i'm not putting any ceiling on him. We need however a good coaching staff and a coach to realize the potential and develop our young players, asap.

 

[Stark]

But you say Zizic is Clearly Oozing with talent . So what is it ? He needs LeBron to lift him up to his potential and wouldn’t fair so well on abithwr team ? Or he’s so damn talented he succeed without LeBron ? Still not sure why you mentioned JJ if Zizic is Oozing all this talent .

Then you go on to mention Zizic could easily be better than Larry Nance in 3 years without much to base this on . Hell, in 3 years Larry Nance could be easily be much better than the Larry you see today but fail to take this in to account because it doesn’t fit your narrative .

Of course Nance could easily be better in three years. That's why I said could. I don't have any narrative besides wanting the Cavaliers to be as good as possible. I want Nance and Zizic both on our team producing at an all-star level three years from now. Will that happen? Who knows, but don't say I have a narrative just to try to further whatever argument you're trying to shamble together here.

Big men take time to develop. More time than any other position in basketball. The fact that Zizic, at age 21, already has very solid PnR defensive IQ, sets the best screens of anybody on this team, has shown insane promise in both Europe and the G-League as an elite level rebounder, is arguably the best roll guy on the team except for LeBron... I could go on and on, but I doubt you'd care or acknowledge it, so I'm not going to waste my time with it.

Not sure what you have against Zizic and Osman, but your shtick is getting old extremely quick.

 

[Jake]

I'm good with Zizic. At least he's tall and can effect opponents shots. He's a kid, too soon to say what his ceiling will be. I'd keep him in the mix for sure. He gives effort, seems focused. I'd use him as Larrys back up without hesitation till we get a better big.

 

[Mr. MacPhisto]

Oh, I agree. I was talking about Gasol as a rookie while disregarding the age difference. Zizic is a better athlete(especially once he gets his conditioning on par), better from end to end as a rim runner(actually has pretty great max speed tbh)...Just that Gasol as a rookie in the NBA was just so impressive on the defensive end.

Also, he is pretty sneaky advanced for his age. He fits the NBA in terms of knowing how to take advantage of the little thing that go unoticed compared to the Euroleague. I saw him hooking Felicio's arm last night on a rebound attempt, he pushes players when refs don't look and he gets under your skin. Very reminiscent of Steven Adams in that sense.

I love Zizic and i'm not putting any ceiling on him. We need however a good coaching staff and a coach to realize the potential and develop our young players, asap.

Agree about developing players.

I am hopeful because Altman seems to be big into scouting and player development. I don't think that was something Griffin as interested in because he was tasked with building a championship caliber team. I'm not sure Griffin would have looked for a guy like Zizic to be added or brought over Osman or gone out and gotten younger by adding Clarkson, Hood, and Nance.

I'm not sure how much of a ceiling Clarkson has. I think he largely is what he is - and that's not a terrible thing. He's a sparkplug off the bench when his game is working. Hood and Nance can continue to grow, IMHO. Osman and Zizic as well.

As Koby begins to mold things a bit more, I hope he works with Lue to get some strong coaches that can help develop these guys and that he pushes for a lot more practices, though I get setting it up so guys like LeBron and Love don't need to be in on the practices as much.

Osman was Altman's big push that he got Griffin to pull the trigger on. Zizic seems to have been an Altman ask. I recall a lot of people wishing for Rozier in return and either salary would've worked.

Altman resisted LeBron's request to sign another old vet in favor of bringing over Osman. He also deserves a lot of credit on Calderon, a pick up many of us (myself included) doubted. And Jeff Green, who is not fantastic, but has been a great value coming off the bench and adding some speed.

I'm optimistic that Altman will find people to develop the younger guys he has gotten. And I think his trades and his insistence on Osman will help him in LeBron's eyes because they have largely proven pretty good. There are some bumps in the road, but I have a feeling that Koby has earned LeBron's respect.

 

[Mr. MacPhisto]

I'm good with Zizic. At least he's tall and can effect opponents shots. He's a kid, too soon to say what his ceiling will be. I'd keep him in the mix for sure. He gives effort, seems focused. I'd use him as Larrys back up without hesitation till we get a better big.

I'm definitely not opposed to using Nance and Zizic in the postseason and limiting Tristan's usage as much as humanly possible.

 

[CTownSportsFan]

Of course Nance could easily be better in three years. That's why I said could. I don't have any narrative besides wanting the Cavaliers to be as good as possible. I want Nance and Zizic both on our team producing at an all-star level three years from now. Will that happen? Who knows, but don't say I have a narrative just to try to further whatever argument you're trying to shamble together here.

Big men take time to develop. More time than any other position in basketball. The fact that Zizic, at age 21, already has very solid PnR defensive IQ, sets the best screens of anybody on this team, has shown insane promise in both Europe and the G-League as an elite level rebounder, is arguably the best roll guy on the team except for LeBron... I could go on and on, but I doubt you'd care or acknowledge it, so I'm not going to waste my time with it.

Not sure what you have against Zizic and Osman, but your shtick is getting old extremely quick.

I’m not even going to debate this as I said Zizic is a few years away and you're now basically agreeing with me by stating big men take longer to develope. I know this , that why I used Varejao as an example who did start until he was 28 years old . I’m excited we have Zizic and see his potential. His ceiling is much higher than Cedi’s , neither with ever be all-star material .

 

[Stark]

I’m not even going to debate this as I said Zizic is a few years away and you're now basically agreeing with me by stating big men take longer to develope. I know this , that why I used Varejao as an example who did start until he was 28 years old .

That is incorrect as well. By the time Andy was 28, he was pretty much riddled with injury for the rest of his career. He looked a bit better as one of the best players of a LeBron-less Cavaliers team, but he really wasn't anything special in those years.

From age 28 to 32 with the Cavaliers, Varejao played in 172 of 394 eligible regular season games. That's roughly ~43% of the time. His development and overall impact was more or less obsolete at this point because he was barely out on the floor.

Varejao's defensive impact more or less faltered a bit as the injuries mounted, Mike Brown left, and LeBron left.

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

I’m not even going to debate this as I said Zizic is a few years away and you're now basically agreeing with me by stating big men take longer to develope. I know this , that why I used Varejao as an example who did start until he was 28 years old .

Varejao is such a terrible comparison for bunch of different reasons.

And yes, Big man might take time to develop because they often pick up basketball later in their life. Zizic however, started playing early because of his brother Andrija Zizic who was an very esablished player in Europe. Zizic has been a fast learner and a big contribtor everywhere and at every level regardless of how skinner or smaller he was, and in the NBA he will be stronger and bigger than most in due time.

And you know, you can still become a starter without developing any major skills, see TT and that's not going to be the case with Zizic. Mark my words.

 

[CTownSportsFan]

Correct and I know this as well, his vet savvy and high B.B. IQ helped him greatly in those years . Still doesn’t take away the point I was making that even AV couldn’t start on a Championship caliber team in his prime years .

 

[Stark]

Correct and I know this as well, his vet savvy and high B.B. IQ helped him greatly in those years . Still doesn’t take away the point I was making that even AV couldn’t start on a Championship caliber team in his prime years .

Anderson Varejao at his absolute peak definitely would start over:
- Tristan Thompson, who was starting games and got outrebounded by Golden State's starting point guard, in the 2017 NBA Finals.
- Boris Diaw, who was starting games in the 2014 NBA Finals.
- Udonis Haslem and Tiago Splitter, who were both starting games in the 2013 NBA Finals.
- Kendrick Perkins, who was starting games in the 2012 NBA Finals.
- Joel Anthony, who was starting games in the 2011 NBA Finals.
- Probably a hell of a lot of other guys, but I'm too lazy to keep digging through old box scores.

Not sure why you even brought up Varejao in the first place. If you're trying to compare him to Zizic, then I'm done wasting time in here because that's an absolutely absurd comparison on all fronts.

 

[CTownSportsFan]

And you know, you can still become a starter without developing any major skills, see TT and that's not going to be the case with Zizic. Mark my words.

TT did have a major skill set , he lead the league in ORB’s which greatly helped the team with 2nd chances opportunity’s . He couldn’t score worth a shit but he greatly helped with overall team efficiency. His P n R defense was also in the top 10%. So yeah , TT had 2 major skill sets during the year the Cavs won a title . Do you envision Zizic leading the league in any category or even in the top 10% ? I’m marking your words as you suggested .

 

[Stark]

TT did have a major skill set , he lead the league in ORB’s which greatly helped the team with 2nd chances opportunity’s . He couldn’t score worth a shit but he greatly helped with overall team efficiency. His P n R defense was also in the top 10%. So yeah , TT had 2 major skill sets during the year the Cavs won a title .

Tristan Thompson has never lead the league in offensive rebounds per game, total offensive rebounds, or ORB%.

 

[CTownSportsFan]

Tristan Thompson has never lead the league in offensive rebounds per game, total offensive rebounds, or ORB%.

My bad , he was tied for 2nd . Thanks for pointing that out ..still this qualifies as a major skill set in which sir conveniently over looked .