Trade Rumor(s)

[3 Ball...GOT IT]

but did anyone saw Mozgov being this bad? what if he doesn't get better? its almost half a season in already...
is sticking with him no matter what worth a title this year? there's nothing wrong with making changes and adapting to unforeseen circumstances, like we did last year.

we brought 3 new guys midseason who were just a perfect fit, we made it to the finals despite injuries, when you have a leader like LeBron continuity is overrated.

You want to tell me that if you could replace Mozgov with Gasol right now you wouldn't do it because of continuity? bedsides how does the continuity that our players have with Mozgov help if he barley plays.

Pau Gasol wouldn't solve anything

 

[Los216]

Maybe we should revisit this thread after Monday Night no?

 

[3 Ball...GOT IT]

Gasol is the 8th best rim protector in the NBA this year.

Gasol - Raw Point Saved/36 - 6.51
Duncan - Raw Point Saved/36 - 6.40

Gasol would be a huge upgrade from Mozgod, if you include his offensive game and championship experience, Gasol is also averaging 16/11/3 and 2 blocks as well, quite impressive for a guy "over his prime"...

Can't see this happening, makes no sense for the bulls, giving us one of the better centers in the league will basically kill any chance they have of beating us in the playoffs...

If you're going to say this, you should also point out he's probably the worst pick and roll defender in the entire league.

 

[K1rieIrving>AllOtherPG's]

Pau Gasol wouldn't solve anything

a great rim protector who can stretch the floor, averages 16/11/3/2 won't solve anything?
you're probably right, lets stick with Tristan Thompson as our starting center. hes great at offensive rebounding.

 

[Jordan]

Hopefully the FO doesn't think like you do. I've been as, perhaps more critical of TT than most around here but he demolished the Bulls on the glass in the semifinals. And Mozgov, while regressing offensively, is still a better rim protector when he has his act together. No way I part with either of those guys + the largest trade exception in the league for a half a year of soft ass, soon-to-be-ancient Gasol.

Listen, I know how bad of a rebounder Gasol is. That's why I said preferably Moz.

I also know this is a pipe dream.

But Mozgov is not a better rim protector this year. He's just not. Mozgov's opponents shoot nearly 7% worse at the rim. Pau Gasol's opposition, on the other hand, shoots over 10% worse at the rim. As

Where you are correct is saying that he is a better rim protector when he has his act together. Last year, during the finals, Mozgov's opposition shot over 17% worse at the rim than in general. That is a historically great number. The dilemma is he is a significantly worse rim defender this season.

I have written about all of this before. Here is the thing, the Cavs will not be able to defeat the Spurs or Warriors with this rim protection. It is very good, but not nearly good enough to work with our current defensive gameplan rightfully utilized by Blatt, where we use our perimeter defenders to force the opponent to take midrange and/or paint shots. Essentially, we force our opponents to go toe-to-toe with our center, which was a strategy that worked wonders last year. This year, though, it has not been nearly as effective, especially against the good teams.

Finally, as @K1rieIrving>AllOtherPG's rightfully noted, Gasol is top-eight defensively at the rim the season. He is not as much of a corpse as you are making him out to be. And to say the Spurs have retained the same core over the past few years is just wrong. Splitter, Hill, Daye, and Joseph are all gone. I highly doubt we are able to get Gasol, but like the Spurs, who picked up David West and Lamarcus Aldridge to drastically improve, if it is possible the Cavs should explore it.

 

[Rainman]

People might as well get the Gasol pipe dream out of their head right now. There's simply no way a division rival (and who may be the top competitor in the conference by years end) would trade the Cavs a piece like Gasol.

Gasol is essentially the exact player the Cavs want/need to win a title this year:

- A big that can play PF or C - Check
- A big that can score in the post or step out with range - Check
- Rim Protector - Check
- Championship Experience - Check

Who could they even trade to entice the Bulls? Maybe if they're somehow getting a third team involved that would get them a younger big (maybe they'd roll the dice on 'Kieff?) then I could see it.

This actually works in Trade Machine:

Cavs Get:
Gasol

Bulls Get:
Morris
Moz

Suns Get:
Heinrich
Cunningham

If I'm the Cavs, I might actually roll the dice on something like this. Don't know if the Bulls would bite, though. Suns dump Morris and get two guys that are expiring contracts.

So we give up Moz and Cunningham for Gasol? No thanks

 

[Real Deal]

Trade talk on this site makes my eyes bleed. It brings me back to Ira Newble, Eric Snow, Damon Jones, Donyell Marshall, Larry Hughes for Kobe.

 

[Lee]

Trade talk on this site makes my eyes bleed. It brings me back to Ira Newble, Eric Snow, Damon Jones, Donyell Marshall, Larry Hughes for Kobe.

Agreed.

Just because it works in the trade machine doesn't mean it works in real life. Gasol fits perfect but I have a better chance to run a 4 minute mile than the cavs do of getting the Bulls to trade us Gasol.

 

[3 Ball...GOT IT]

a great rim protector who can stretch the floor, averages 16/11/3/2 won't solve anything?
you're probably right, lets stick with Tristan Thompson as our starting center. hes great at offensive rebounds.

If we're that concerned with point/rebound averages, then let's start Andy and play him 30. That would solve nothing

I for one am not buying into those rim protection #'s.... Those numbers may include when he is not the primary defender.
94.7% (!!!) of Pau's minutes this year are with Jimmy Butler for example, who is one of the best wing defenders in the league, and I'd assume is often helping on shots at the rim.

However, last season Pau's opponent field goal % at the rim as the primary defender was 58.1%, which is a little worse than average.

And a more important note I already mentioned... Pau is awful in the pick and roll. We wouldn't even be able to put him within 100 feet of the court in a Finals series vs Spurs or Warriors. The guy has less mobility than if you put Jim Chones on the court right now. I went back and looked at the last Bulls/Warriors game. Two early first quarter possessions the Warriors ran a simple high pick and roll, and all Pau ever does is drop down too low into the paint, and give up a three to Curry (in part due to his lack of mobility). The rest of the game the Bulls hardly used him in their pick and roll coverage.

His strategy is always the same when defending the pick and roll... Sink as low as possible and prevent shots at the rim. Meanwhile he leaves the guard on an island and gives up tons of wide open 3s and midrange jumpshots. Talk about a recipe for disaster against Stephen Curry. Too bad the rim protection #s won't show any of this.

Assuming he'd take the starting role, he'd be playing alongside Kevin Love. Talk about one of the worst defensive frontcourts in NBA history lol. I would rather forfeit than watch Gasol and Kyrie try to defend a simple high pick and roll.

If you've watched him play defense at any point, you'd know he's one of the slowest and worst defensive bigs in the league.

 

[buzzdog]

No doubt Griffin is making some calls to do his due diligence on ways to improve the team before the trade deadline. Does that mean a trade of Mozgov is certain? I would think that's far from a certainty.

But Griffin wouldn't be doing his job if he wasn't shaking the bushes to see what might drop out that can enhance our chances to win a 'ship THIS year. And sometimes the best trades end up being the ones you don't make. Trading Mozgov in any kind of lateral move would be detrimental to the team chemistry and continuity. There's an excellent chance that Moz pulls it back together by May and quite frankly that would probably be the best chance for this team to compete well throughout the playoffs unless Griffin can pull off something truly special.

 

[Jstock12]

...unless Griffin can pull off something truly special.

 

[6kiss]

Holy shit, for one year, Can we not bring up trash Gasol. Takes him 14 shots to put up 16ppg as a damn 7 footer. Just stop it please.

 

[Jordan]

If we're that concerned with point/rebound averages, then let's start Andy and play him 30. That would solve nothing

I for one am not buying into those rim protection #'s.... Those numbers may include when he is not the primary defender.
94.7% (!!!) of Pau's minutes this year are with Jimmy Butler for example, who is one of the best wing defenders in the league, and I'd assume is often helping on shots at the rim.

However, last season Pau's opponent field goal % at the rim as the primary defender was 58.1%, which is a little worse than average.

Out of curiosity, where are you finding the bolded? What I am seeing is when he was defending the shot (DFG%), his opponents shot 6.6% worse at the rim last season.

I'm honestly more interested about where you found that statistic. Not trying to call you a liar, or anything.

And a more important note I already mentioned... Pau is awful in the pick and roll. We wouldn't even be able to put him within 100 feet of the court in a Finals series vs Spurs or Warriors. The guy has less mobility than if you put Jim Chones on the court right now. I went back and looked at the last Bulls/Warriors game. Two early first quarter possessions the Warriors ran a simple high pick and roll, and all Pau ever does is drop down too low into the paint, and give up a three to Curry (in part due to his lack of mobility). The rest of the game the Bulls hardly used him in their pick and roll coverage.

His strategy is always the same when defending the pick and roll... Sink as low as possible and prevent shots at the rim. Meanwhile he leaves the guard on an island and gives up tons of wide open 3s and midrange jumpshots. Talk about a recipe for disaster against Stephen Curry. Too bad the rim protection #s won't show any of this.

Assuming he'd take the starting role, he'd be playing alongside Kevin Love. Talk about one of the worst defensive frontcourts in NBA history lol. I would rather forfeit than watch Gasol and Kyrie try to defend a simple high pick and roll.

If you've watched him play defense at any point, you'd know he's one of the slowest and worst defensive bigs in the league.

I definitely agree with this. Here is my thing, though. Golden State attacks the roll defender the third least times in the association. Where they would attack Pau, therefore, is when the screen is switched to take a three point shot. Here, Pau is not as bad. He allows the 19th lowest eFG% off screens as a roll defender. Thus, with the Warriors I don't view this as much of a problem is some.

The dilemma does occur against the Spurs, who run that with relative frequency. And I'll give you credit, here, his playing time against the Spurs will be limited. However, I don't view Moz getting much more, as he is a worse interior defender (see stats above). Here, I'm interested in seeing the stats you discussed above, as it could change my opinion.

Great post, though, even though we disagree it was informative.

 

[3 Ball...GOT IT]

Out of curiosity, where are you finding the bolded? What I am seeing is when he was defending the shot (DFG%), his opponents shot 6.6% worse at the rim last season.

I'm honestly more interested about where you found that statistic. Not trying to call you a liar, or anything.



I definitely agree with this. Here is my thing, though. Golden State attacks the roll defender the third least times in the association. Where they would attack Pau, therefore, is when the screen is switched to take a three point shot. Here, Pau is not as bad. He allows the 19th lowest eFG% off screens as a roll defender. Thus, with the Warriors I don't view this as much of a problem is some.

The dilemma does occur against the Spurs, who run that with relative frequency. And I'll give you credit, here, his playing time against the Spurs will be limited. However, I don't view Moz getting much more, as he is a worse interior defender (see stats above). Here, I'm interested in seeing the stats you discussed above, as it could change my opinion.

Great post, though, even though we disagree it was informative.

On Nylon Calculus rim protection stats for 2014-15 season. There's a column for opponent FG% at the rim as primary defender.

 

[Jordan]

On Nylon Calculus rim protection stats for 2014-15 season. There's a column for opponent FG% at the rim as primary defender.

Very interesting. Thanks for pointing that out! I definitely will use this on my own website.

In regards to the stats, Mozgov has an even worse rim protection metric last season than Pau. That's confusing to me, because as a Cav before and during the playoffs, opponents shot between 17%-18% worse at the rim. Obviously, the SportVU tracking data regarding DFG% does not take into consideration who else is on the court, but it does take into consideration when a player is the one contesting the shot. I'm not saying SportVU is wrong, but, I don't know if their stats can be solely relied on.

Nevertheless, I'm not sure we need to argue their stats' legitimacy. My point still stands either way. From watching, this season, Pau is absolutely the better rim defender out of the two. Nonetheless, I do give you credit, Mozgov has the potential to be vastly, vastly superior than Pau as a rim protector.

Here is my issue, Moz reaching that level would require him to pull a 180, and I find that unlikely. I repeated ad nauseum this summer that Mozgov was at significant risk of regressing from his form as a Cav last season. Between the knee surgery and historical comparison, only the best NBA centers retain that form for long stretches.

Thus, I view the Mozgov-Pau dilemma as one of risk/reward. Moz has a higher ceiling, but a lower floor. Pau has a lower ceiling, but a higher floor. Based on Pau's play this season, I think he is more likely to stay at his current level, which is better than Moz. So the discussion really depends on two things: first, do you think Moz can regain his form from last season? And two, is trading Moz and bringing in Pau worth the inevitable chemistry disruption?

Regardless, this discussion is all happening in a vacuum. The likelihood of us being able to get Pau is slim-to-none. I just thought it was something interesting to explore.