Trade Rumor(s)

[3 Ball...GOT IT]

Very interesting. Thanks for pointing that out! I definitely will use this on my own website.

In regards to the stats, Mozgov has an even worse rim protection metric last season than Pau. That's confusing to me, because as a Cav before and during the playoffs, opponents shot between 17%-18% worse at the rim. Obviously, the SportVU tracking data regarding DFG% does not take into consideration who else is on the court, but it does take into consideration when a player is the one contesting the shot. I'm not saying SportVU is wrong, but, I don't know if their stats can be solely relied on.

Nevertheless, I'm not sure we need to argue their stats' legitimacy. My point still stands either way. From watching, this season, Pau is absolutely the better rim defender out of the two. Nonetheless, I do give you credit, Mozgov has the potential to be vastly, vastly superior than Pau as a rim protector.

Here is my issue, Moz reaching that level would require him to pull a 180, and I find that unlikely. I repeated ad nauseum this summer that Mozgov was at significant risk of regressing from his form as a Cav last season. Between the knee surgery and historical comparison, only the best NBA centers retain that form for long stretches.

Thus, I view the Mozgov-Pau dilemma as one of risk/reward. Moz has a higher ceiling, but a lower floor. Pau has a lower ceiling, but a higher floor. Based on Pau's play this season, I think he is more likely to stay at his current level, which is better than Moz. So the discussion really depends on two things: first, do you think Moz can regain his form from last season? And two, is trading Moz and bringing in Pau worth the inevitable chemistry disruption?

Regardless, this discussion is all happening in a vacuum. The likelihood of us being able to get Pau is slim-to-none. I just thought it was something interesting to explore.

You can't judge a big's overall defense solely on rim protection. If youve watched the Bulls with Pau consistently, you'd know he's not just a below average defender, but a horrible one. All he has is good rim protection #s, which IMO are only present due to the fact that he has to solely rely on shot blocking because he's so bad at every other aspect of defense.

 

[Jordan]

You can't judge a big's overall defense solely on rim protection. If youve watched the Bulls with Pau consistently, you'd know he's not just a below average defender, but a horrible one. All he has is good rim protection #s, which IMO are only present due to the fact that he has to solely rely on shot blocking because he's so bad at every other aspect of defense.

I don't remember if you were the one to say this originally but I addressed this in a previous post (should be on this page or the previous page).

Pau's biggest weakness as a defender is his PnR defense as a roll defender, which I admitted is pretty damn bad, but this season the Warriors don't really attack the roll defender. The issue is, though, the Spurs. They attack it relentlessly, and as I said, we probably cannot play him much versus San Antonio. As Moz has played this season, however, I really don't know how much playing time he could get versus the Spurs either.

 

[3 Ball...GOT IT]

I don't remember if you were the one to say this originally but I addressed this in a previous post (should be on this page or the previous page).

Pau's biggest weakness as a defender is his PnR defense as a roll defender, which I admitted is pretty damn bad, but this season the Warriors don't really attack the roll defender. The issue is, though, the Spurs. They attack it relentlessly, and as I said, we probably cannot play him much versus San Antonio. As Moz has played this season, however, I really don't know how much playing time he could get versus the Spurs either.

I saw that. I'd be willing to bet all of my life savings the Warriors would P&R the Cavs to death if Gasol was on defense until we solved it. That's like taking candy from a baby. That team is too smart to just let that glaring weakness go by.

Also, they don't need to attack the roll defender when Pau would be sinking deep every time and Curry would have an uncontested three whenever he wanted in the easiest way possible. They'll take that shot first before attacking Pau. I don't know if the numbers you have incorporate that or not.

I just don't see adding him as a positive at all. Either way I don't think we'd even have a shot at getting him. Bulls are allergic to trades, and with Noah going down they'd probably value Pau much higher than he truly should be.

 

[Bob_The_Cat]

I just see very few legitimate ways the Cavs can bring in someone better than Moz (or someone that has the potential to be better) without giving up a core piece of the team. Let's put it in these terms.

Definitely not getting traded:
LeBron
Kyrie
Love
TT

Highly unlikely to get traded:
Shump
Delly
Andy (more so due to contract)
Jones (Because he's Bron's boy)

Possibly tradeable in the right deal:
Smith (probably more in the 'Highly Unlikely category)
Williams
Moz

Could get traded but would get jack for them:
Jefferson
Kaun

Last year we had Waiters and a couple 1sts to make some moves. Yes, there are the exceptions, but there's little else to actually work with in terms of trade assets. I think the Cavs add someone prior to the deadline, but I don't really believe it'll be anyone who winds up making much of an impact.

 

[Jordan]

I saw that. I'd be willing to bet all of my life savings the Warriors would P&R the Cavs to death if Gasol was on defense until we solved it. That's like taking candy from a baby. That team is too smart to just let that glaring weakness go by.

Not sure about that. I think the reason GSW doesn't attack the roll defender is because that is the only weakness in their entire offense. Also, given the context of how their offense functions, it's not really all that important. It's less efficient than every play they run and their talent does not lend itself to those types of plays.

Also, they don't need to attack the roll defender when Pau would be sinking deep every time and Curry would have an uncontested three whenever he wanted in the easiest way possible. They'll take that shot first before attacking Pau. I don't know if the numbers you have incorporate that or not.

Right, this you are really on point with, and unfortunately the stats don't incorporate that to my knowledge. I'd say the dilemma is we are left with the eye tests. The majority of stats support my point, but, I also acknowledge your criticism. It's just something that we will have to agree to disagree on.

Nonetheless, you've made some great points. I still would do the trade, if it somehow came to be, but I wouldn't think he was as much of an improvement as originally.

I just don't see adding him as a positive at all. Either way I don't think we'd even have a shot at getting him. Bulls are allergic to trades, and with Noah going down they'd probably value Pau much higher than he truly should be.

Yeah, as I've said, I find it highly unlikely. Not gonna happen, haha. But if the Bulls really were shopping him all I meant was it was worth exploring.

 

[roozy]

Gasol is ass defensively on the pick and roll, there's a reason Bulls fans hate him and want him off the team. You think you've seen the worst of it with Love on the defensive end boy you'll be in for a rude awakening with Pau, can't believe this is being discussed.

 

[Walter White]

Imagine if we had Marc Gasol . We'd be unstoppable. Sorry, just got me thinking about it with the talk of Pau Gasol.

Basically all we got to work with is the TPE. We are limited to players that want off of their teams or teams that want said player gone. Or bought out players. Our only real "asset" that could be tradeable imo is Moz, and he is only traded if we get back and equal or better defensive post presence. Or if we have some inside knowledge about concerning long term health issues or already know that it won't be feasible to sign him next off-season so we decide to get assets for him. But even that is unlikely as we won't risk the current championship drive for this year if it doesn't mean getting back equal talent right now.

 

[Jstock12]

Aside from LeBron/Kyrie, everyone is tradeable for the right price IMO.

 

[Posterchild]

Aside from LeBron/Kyrie, everyone is tradeable for the right price IMO.

IMO you have to include TT. The whole Rich Paul thing - ya know.

Plus Shump and JR. They probably party as a group.

 

[Bob_The_Cat]

Aside from LeBron/Kyrie, everyone is tradeable for the right price IMO.

Well yes, of course. However, many of the guys on the roster simply aren't all that valuable to non-contending / non-playoff teams. Delly is a great piece and the type of guy you have to have on the roster to win a title, but does he bring much value in a trade? No. Same for a guy like Smith.

Non-playoff teams aren't going to want to pay a guy like Shump $9 mill. Ditto for AV.

 

[JMoneyYourHoney]

I don't buy these rim protection numbers being spouted about Gasol either. If you populate the Bulls' forum, as I do, you'd know that about 90% of fans bitch incessantly about his lack of D and pined for him to be benched in place of Noah. Great offensive center but I'd take a non-Linda Blair Mozgov all day.

 

[K1rieIrving>AllOtherPG's]

If we're that concerned with point/rebound averages, then let's start Andy and play him 30. That would solve nothing

I for one am not buying into those rim protection #'s.... Those numbers may include when he is not the primary defender.
94.7% (!!!) of Pau's minutes this year are with Jimmy Butler for example, who is one of the best wing defenders in the league, and I'd assume is often helping on shots at the rim.

However, last season Pau's opponent field goal % at the rim as the primary defender was 58.1%, which is a little worse than average.

And a more important note I already mentioned... Pau is awful in the pick and roll. We wouldn't even be able to put him within 100 feet of the court in a Finals series vs Spurs or Warriors. The guy has less mobility than if you put Jim Chones on the court right now. I went back and looked at the last Bulls/Warriors game. Two early first quarter possessions the Warriors ran a simple high pick and roll, and all Pau ever does is drop down too low into the paint, and give up a three to Curry (in part due to his lack of mobility). The rest of the game the Bulls hardly used him in their pick and roll coverage.

His strategy is always the same when defending the pick and roll... Sink as low as possible and prevent shots at the rim. Meanwhile he leaves the guard on an island and gives up tons of wide open 3s and midrange jumpshots. Talk about a recipe for disaster against Stephen Curry. Too bad the rim protection #s won't show any of this.

Assuming he'd take the starting role, he'd be playing alongside Kevin Love. Talk about one of the worst defensive frontcourts in NBA history lol. I would rather forfeit than watch Gasol and Kyrie try to defend a simple high pick and roll.

If you've watched him play defense at any point, you'd know he's one of the slowest and worst defensive bigs in the league.

Having Gasol is way better then having this year version of Mozgov, when you consider the all around game and experience. Mozgov has looked considerably slower and less athletic this year and Blatt barley plays him anymore which is a huge concern, not sure how good of P&R defender Mozgovs been this year, would love to see some stats on that, except the occasional straight up contest at the rim Mozgov hasn't really contributed anything else tbh

I didn't watch the bulls play this year, I was just looking at Gasols numbers and they look very impressive.
you definitely bring up some great point, was not aware he was this bad on the P&R defense which is a concern, to be honest this whole discussion is kinda empty because we all know bulls will never give us Gasol no matter what.

would love to hear realistic solutions to our center situation though, is the consensus here is just hoping that Mozgod gets back to his former self?

 

[supermario21]

I mentioned it a few game threads back...Love for Tyreke Evans/Ryan Anderson? Yeah we give up the best player but fit might be better...Especially if we continue to use Love how he is being used for the most part.

 

[Jordan]

I mentioned it a few game threads back...Love for Tyreke Evans/Ryan Anderson? Yeah we give up the best player but fit might be better...Especially if we continue to use Love how he is being used for the most part.

Tyreke Evans would make our current isolation offense look like the Spurs. That dude slows down his team by holding the ball to a degree Lebron think is ridiculous. No thank you.

I would love Ryan Anderson, but do not want to trade Love for him. Love can do a ton of things, outside of being a spot up shooter, significantly better than Ryan Anderson.

I get where you are coming from, and we've had some good arguments about Love, so no need to re-hash them. I do think if there is a way for us to get Ryan Anderson it would be worth the conversation.

 

[Lyuokdea]

Does anybody think it is possible to get Marvin Williams? He's an expiring, and having a good year - so it might be hard, but he's basically the perfect complement that we lack at the 3/4 (Markieff Morris minus the headache, and a better 3PT shooter). +1.3 DBPM this year and +1.8 DBPM last year, can guard both SFs and PFs.

I'm not sure that we have the ammo to get him - but Charlotte might be worried that they will lose him for nothing at the end of the year.