It's a typo Q-Tip.. I'm referencing our championship run, which was 2015-16 -- you know, the one that we won; 2016-17 is clearly a typo if you read the posts where I'm mistakenly using the wrong year. But my bad for the confusion...
But I didn't say I'd have wanted to make that trade in 2015-16 either. I'm talking about this season and moving forward, with the 2015-16 championship on the mantle and the 52-year streak finally over.
The team now is two years older than it was in 2015-16. J.R. is no longer a reliable starter, and isn't close to being the defensive player he was then. Neither was Shumpert before the 2018 deadline trade, and neither is TT now. Nor is LBJ the defensive player he was then -- he is simply getting older. Now, in 2017-18, we lack the ability to cover for Kyrie's defensive lapses as we did in 2015-16. I don't think we can compete for a title with LBJ unless he has more two-way players around him. And Kyrie isn't a two-way player, and very likely never will be.
Oladipo and Kyrie are both combo-guards, both players play both backcourt positions.
Calling them both "combo guards" is just semantics, and it ignores 1) the very real differences between the positions they are able to play both offensively and defensively, and 2) the type of players with whom they can be paired in the backcourt. Orlando tried making Oladipo a PG when he first came out -- that failed rather miserably. He doesn't have the ball-handling skills. He's seen his greatest success in Indiana where he has been paired with Darren Collison -- a true point guard. Oladipo also is able to guard 1-3, which means he could be paired with Collison, Kemba Walker, or any number of smaller PG's who are unable to guard SG's.
Kyrie has played point guard his entire career, even if he generally wasn't the primary distributor in Cleveland. There were plenty of times/plays in Cleveland where he actually was playing a traditonal point guard role, especially if LBJ wasn't on the court, and when they did their "your turn/my turn" routine. Also, unlike Oladipo, Kyrie is a superlative ball-handler who can routinely be relied upon to bring the ball safely upcourt even when pressed. Finally -- look at the kind of players with whom coaches have paired him in the backup. J.R. Smith is a true SG, who has/had the size and ability to guard 2's and 3's. Marcus Smart is a very solid 6'4", and can guard 1-3. Kyrie on the other hand, struggles guarding point guards, and can't guard larger 2's or 3's.
So the difference between Oladipo and Irving with respect to position and role is minimal at best
Disagree completely, per the above. To the extent you think this is still true, I'd simply suggest imagining either of them paired with a true PG, Kemba Walker. Oladipo/Kemba is a better fit than Kyrie/Kemba, just as a Kyrie/JR backcourt would be a better fit than Oladipo/JR. If the difference between their position and roles truly was minimal, those pairings should be equally good/bad fits either way. Maybe you think they would be. I don't.
So much Oladipo love. He's had a good season, but he needs to sustain it before we can start comparing him to Kyrie.. If I remember right his numbers have declined a bit after his hot start this season.
But I didn't say I'd have wanted to make that trade in 2015-16 either. I'm talking about this season and moving forward, with the 2015-16 championship on the mantle and the 52-year streak finally over.
The team now is two years older than it was in 2015-16. J.R. is no longer a reliable starter, and isn't close to being the defensive player he was then. Neither was Shumpert before the 2018 deadline trade, and neither is TT now. Nor is LBJ the defensive player he was then -- he is simply getting older. Now, in 2017-18, we lack the ability to cover for Kyrie's defensive lapses as we did in 2015-16. I don't think we can compete for a title with LBJ unless he has more two-way players around him. And Kyrie isn't a two-way player, and very likely never will be.
Kyrie was a two-way player at the start of this season, and in our championship run, as well as in his first playoffs. He has shown the ability to do it, and much like Harden has developed some defensive prowess, I'd expect Irving could do the same once he's satisfied with his offensive game (which I think is his primary concern).
No, it's not. Your argument is about position and role; their role is the same, they both act as combo-guards who are not necessarily (1) the primary point player, and (2) or necessarily the primary ball handler. Oladipo and Irving would both most likely play the same role/position on the Cavs.
and 2) the type of players with whom they can be paired in the backcourt. Orlando tried making Oladipo a PG when he first came out -- that failed rather miserably. He doesn't have the ball-handling skills. He's seen his greatest success in Indiana where he has been paired with Darren Collison -- a true point guard. Oladipo also is able to guard 1-3, which means he could be paired with Collison, Kemba Walker, or any number of smaller PG's who are unable to guard SG's.
.. I think you're greatly overstating the positional value in Indiana with Oladipo being the off-guard. He was the off-guard in OKC, playing alongside a "true point guard" in Russell Westbrook (who is also a combo-guard, FWIW); and he didn't flourish as he has in Indiana.
So it's not the pairing of 'Dipo with a "true point guard," that's the cause for his success -- that is to say, if you remove Collison from the equation, and replace him with a comparable combo-guard who just happens to be a bit taller and can defend the 2, it shouldn't negatively effect Oladipo.
So suffice to say, Dipo is playing better than he has historically, since being drafted, but to say it's because he's finally slotted at the 2, when he was slotted there last season, doesn't really make sense; IMHO...
Kyrie has played point guard his entire career, even if he generally wasn't the primary distributor in Cleveland. There were plenty of times/plays in Cleveland where he actually was playing a traditonal point guard role, especially if LBJ wasn't on the court, and when they did their "your turn/my turn" routine.
FWIW, One of Irving's biggest gripes was not being able to play the point for years. In fact, the last time Irving was slotted in that role as the primary point player, was before LeBron's "vacation" during Blatt's tenure.
Now, of course Irving often played the point role; but the same is true for Oladipo right now. He's averaging 4.3 APG alongside Collison whose average just 5.3 APG; so there isn't much of a gap here.
So my point here is that, why Irving is a better point player than Oladipo, that doesn't mean they don't play the same role/position. Both play the role of a combo-guard who is the primary scoring threat on their team, and is not the primary ball-handler or distributor. With Oladipo it's been Westbrook and Collison, for Irving, it was LeBron James.
Finally -- look at the kind of players with whom coaches have paired him in the backup. J.R. Smith is a true SG, who has/had the size and ability to guard 2's and 3's. Marcus Smart is a very solid 6'4", and can guard 1-3. Kyrie on the other hand, struggles guarding point guards, and can't guard larger 2's or 3's.
We paired up Irving with Smith out of necessity. We had no choice because Shumpert, the more ideal pairing, was often injured and playing terribly. Smith should have been coming off the bench, but he consistently outperformed Shumpert and was simply more consistent and reliable. However, the cross-match of Smith on Curry was terrible -- Irving was far better guarding point guards than JR. With that said, Irving did just fine when matched up against most 2's, from 6'4 Bradley Beal to 6'7 Klay Thompson..
With that said, I don't think it's fair to argue that Oladipo can guard the 3; I don't think that's really true -- that's more of a cross-match than a natural fit. A player that can naturally guard the 1-3 would be someone like a younger Andre Iguodala, but not Victor Oladipo -- you couldn't put Oladipo on Kawhi, LeBron, Durant, Paul George all game without getting decimated.
So I don't agree with the assessment there -- Oladipo is serviceable in a pinch, i.e., in pick-and-roll defensive schemes, as a help-defender; but you can't run out a 3-guard rotation with Dipo at the 3 and expect him to guard the better SFs in the league...
Disagree completely, per the above. To the extent you think this is still true, I'd simply suggest imagining either of them paired with a true PG, Kemba Walker. Oladipo/Kemba is a better fit than Kyrie/Kemba, just as a Kyrie/JR backcourt would be a better fit than Oladipo/JR. If the difference between their position and roles truly was minimal, those pairings should be equally good/bad fits either way. Maybe you think they would be. I don't.
I don't think Kemba is a "true point guard;" he plays the same positional role as Kyrie Irving, they are both combo guards.
Kemba can defend the two even though he's undersized; so to me, Kemba and Kyrie are very similar in this respect, however, Kyrie gives up significantly less size so you could put Irving on a player like Klay Thompson and you're totally fine. So while Kemba is limited with respect to height and length, and that defines his role as a PG, I don't think their playstyles are all that different.
A true point guard would be someone like Rajon Rondo, Ricky Rubio, Chris Paul, John Wall, Kyle Lowry, and Russell Westbrook. Obviously Westbrook and to an extent Paul blur those lines a bit, and Lowry has been on either side of the equation throughout his career. There are also other players that can play the position of "true point guard" well but choose not to like Steph Curry.
But I wouldn't call Irving a "true point guard" anymore than I would call Kemba Walker, Damien Lillard, Jrue Holliday (look how he thrives alongside Rondo), Eric Bledsoe, or Mike Conley.. These players are combo guards; able to play either the role of the point guard or shooting guard, in a traditional sense. That's also true of Victor Oladipo. You can play him at the point, no problem; just as you can play him at SG, no problem.
Longer justification in tags:
If you ask me, is Irving better alongside a point guard like Eric Bledsoe, Ricky Rubio, Chris Paul or John Wall, and I'd say sure, he did just fine alongside LeBron -- there's no reason to assume he couldn't play with a ball-dominant player and absolutely thrive, he's done it in Cleveland. I think you'd want to find a player that could defend the 2 as well, so you'd want to avoid a particularly undersized backcourt, but, overall, I don't think you'd have the problem with Kyrie Irving at the off-guard, or as the Cavs like to say, at the "attack guard" position (lol).
Now, if your point regarding Oladipo is that the symmetric equivalent doesn't hold; that is to say, Oladipo is not as good as a point-player as Irving is, I would agree. However, Irving is better in the traditional shooting guard role, than Oladipo is as well. Or in other words, when tasked with shooting the ball, scoring the ball, and actually using possessions towards that end -- Irving is unquestionably better than Victor Oladipo.
By contrast, Oladipo is better defensively than Irving at both the 1 and the 2, and yes, when necessarily, at the 3. But Irving is better offensively, at any position; and it's not even remotely close (and neither is the discrepancy in their defense over the regular season).
So again, both Oladipo and Irving are combo-guards. Irving can play the off-guard, but yes, teams choose to use him at the point and pair him with a SG largely because Irving will always be the best ball handler on the floor at any given moment, he's a good point guard in general, and it makes more sense to have size on the floor to go with him in the backcourt if you have the option.
Oladipo is also a combo guard, but since he's not as good of a ball-handler or distributor as Irving, he's best played in the off-guard position with a better ball-handler/point-player at the 1. If you had Oladipo on the Cavs however, he would almost certainly play the PG position because you already have a point-forward; so you'd want to maximize size and athleticism in your backcourt, so Oladipo+big SG+LeBron is better than small PG+Oladipo+LeBron...
Hypothetically, Kyrie+Klay+LeBron would be the best 3-man perimeter in the NBA; swapping Kyrie out for Oladipo makes that 3-man squad worse offensively, better defensively, but positionally, it doesn't change -- you wouldn't seek to move Klay, a traditional SG, because you now have Oladipo.. Oladipo would be slotted at PG. Same if you had Paul George; George would play the 2; same if you had Beal, again, Oladipo would play the 1, not the 2.
So much Oladipo love. He's had a good season, but he needs to sustain it before we can start comparing him to Kyrie.. If I remember right his numbers have declined a bit after his hot start this season.
This all assumes Oladipo is the player he's been this season going forward...
But there's an argument to be had about whether this team, as is, would get better by adding either Oladipo or Irving to it.
Take Kyrie out of the picture and look at the apples of everyone's eyes this offseason - Lillard and Beal. Personally, I think I'd rather have Oladipo than either. If I were ranking them, I'd have Beal a distant 3rd and I'd be unsure about the other two.
This team can't really afford another defensive sieve on it. We saw that when IT came back.
You can hide a bad defender. Warriors hide Curry well. Rockets hide Harden well. The key is having a good defensive scheme which does that and surround good defenders around them. Us on the other hand.....
Anyway, having a player who can get you buckets against any type of defense is priceless. And Kyrie will get you buckets. In half-court or in transition, against a zone defense or man to man defense. Players of Kyrie's ilk are rare as fuck. Oladipo, as good as he is, hasn't showcased his ability to break down a defense and score in playoffs consistently. Until he does so, I won't be rating him over Kyrie.
However, I agree with @Cavatt , if we consider Kyrie's injuries and all, presently I will go for Oladipo over Kyrie. But if both are healthy, I am picking Kyrie Irving over any guard in the league not named Steph Curry, James Harden, Chris Paul and Russell Westbrook.
However, I agree with @Cavatt , if we consider Kyrie's injuries and all, presently I will go for Oladipo over Kyrie. But if both are healthy, I am picking Kyrie Irving over any guard in the league not named Steph Curry, James Harden, Chris Paul and Russell Westbrook.
Here is a simple explanation why this guy is the worst coach in the league, every player that comes here plays worse, and every player that get traded seems to thrive. Look at Rose now even putting up big numbers for the Wolves. I guarantee any other team he was coaching would lose 10+ more games in the season. Most overrated coach of all time and ironically he is Docs pupil who is probably the second most overrated coach of all time.
Here is a simple explanation why this guy is the worst coach in the league, every player that comes here plays worse, and every player that get traded seems to thrive. Look at Rose now even putting up big numbers for the Wolves. I guarantee any other team he was coaching would lose 10+ more games in the season. Most overrated coach of all time and ironically he is Docs pupil who is probably the second most overrated coach of all time.
@gourimoko gets it...one of the few posters here who understands at a gut level the two massive errors our front office made that have probably slammed our championship window shut. First, not responding to GS getting Durant -- trying to do it on the cheap with buyout players. Second, and even worse, gifting Kyrie Irving, a potential top 50 all-time player if/when healthy, to the Celtics for a mid-level lottery pick and a backup center. You can say in the first case that it was hard to make moves given our cap situation, although that's not a good excuse. But there's no excuse for the Kyrie trade.
I am still trying to keep hope alive but it's depressing to think about this shit. We were so close to putting together a historic dynasty
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