We have our first gay pro athlete.

[Man Called X]

So I take it you don't have an explanation as of right now?

He's always existed or is a being that is not limited to the universal laws/dimensions we are. You can make the argument that the matter before the big bang just existed, but the degree of error is so incredibly small. You can believe what you want, but I'll take probability. Some being that created the universe and set constants v.s. an incredibly small chance that matter, which just existed, expanded in the exact manner to produce conditions capable of supporting human life.


I never brought Adam and Eve or Christianity into this. I was going to get into the moral law argument, but I think it would be fruitless.

Ancient alien theory makes more sense and can be backed by more evidence than a collection of writings from countless authors, translated countless times, and changed to meet the needs of the ruling class at the time.

I never brought Christianity into this. I'm just curious how atheists answer certain questions that do not make logical sense to me.

Always existing doesn't work. He had to come from somewhere. Even if that is a higher dimension where he has power over us, he still had to come from somewhere. God didn't think himself into existence. If God exists without a physical body as is certainly implied, what image was man created in?

Again, ancient alien theory explains all this a lot better than the standard retort of "He just is"

I will for the life of me never understand how it's logical to accept a supreme power, but it's illogical to believe in controlled chaos or rubber band theory.

 

[buzzdog]

This was also the plot of the movie Dogma.

Yeah, I was waiting for a post to show up from Kevin Smith any at minute once we started talking about free will of angels and such.

 

[metalman213]

Always existing doesn't work. He had to come from somewhere. Even if that is a higher dimension where he has power over us, he still had to come from somewhere. God didn't think himself into existence. If God exists without a physical body as is certainly implied, what image was man created in?

Again, ancient alien theory explains all this a lot better than the standard retort of "He just is"

I will for the life of me never understand how it's logical to accept a supreme power, but it's illogical to believe in controlled chaos or rubber band theory.

You keep implying I'm arguing the Christian faith or even that God is a person type thing. My question was how do you explain the preciseness of the universe, how the constants are set exactly so that the universe did not crumble in on itself or expand too rapidly? You can go with the ancient aliens theory all you want, but aliens would be living creatures, and I'm asking how do you explain how the universe worked out in a way that they are able to live?

I'm sorry, but not having an answer to every question isn't evidence that a magical space wizard exists and created everything. It simply means that there are things we haven't figured out yet. Hell, it wasn't that long ago we thought the world was flat, or relied on fire for our source of light. Eventually we'll have answers to all your questions, provided we don't blow ourselves up beforehand.

The entire strength of that argument is based on the assumption that eventually we will figure those things out, which there is no evidence of right now. I can't foresee the future, and I don't see how this is a strong / valid argument.

 

[Jack Brickman]

The entire strength of that argument is based on the assumption that eventually we will figure those things out, which there is no evidence of right now. I can't foresee the future, and I don't see how this is a strong / valid argument.

The entire strength of your argument based on the assumption that a lack of proof that God doesn't exist is proof that he does. No offense, but that's a really stupid assumption, and that's certainly not how critical thinking works.

 

[The Oi]

Why would one need to believe in god/God/gods to recognize the "perfection" of organisms?

 

[metalman213]

The entire strength of your argument based on the assumption that a lack of proof that God doesn't exist is proof that he does. No offense, but that's a really stupid assumption, and that's certainly not how critical thinking works.

Completely different argument. My argument is that it is more likely that something created the universe and set certain constants that allow the universe to exist as it does than the idea that it all originated out of nothing and random chance, chances that are infinitesimally small. You can make the argument of parallel universes if you want I suppose, but that doesn't work for me. I'm not saying god exists because science can't prove that he doesn't exist, I'm saying that god is necessary since it makes more logical sense to me than just getting really really lucky (and not to mention the problem why the big bang happened and why, out of a billion quarks and anti quarks one extra quark existed - without it all matter would have eliminated itself).

 

[Jack Brickman]

Completely different argument. My argument is that it is more likely that something created the universe and set certain constants that allow the universe to exist as it does than the idea that it all originated out of nothing and random chance, chances that are infinitesimally small. You can make the argument of parallel universes if you want I suppose, but that doesn't work for me. I'm not saying god exists because science can't prove that he doesn't exist, I'm saying that god is necessary since it makes more logical sense to me than just getting really really lucky (and not to mention the problem why the big bang happened and why, out of a billion quarks and anti quarks one extra quark existed - without it all matter would have eliminated itself).

So essentially your argument is that God exists because it makes the most sense to you that he does? That's not a terribly convincing argument.

 

[The Oi]

So essentially your argument is that God exists because it makes the most sense to you that he does? That's not a terribly convincing argument.

Your argument is essentially the same.

 

[Jack Brickman]

Your argument is essentially the same.

I know. That's kind of the point.

 

[The Oi]

I know. That's kind of the point.

But that would mean that your argument isn't particularly convincing either...according to you.

 

[metalman213]

So essentially your argument is that God exists because it makes the most sense to you that he does? That's not a terribly convincing argument.

The reasoning for why I believe in god is that yes it makes more sense to me.

Hypothetical situation #1 - God exists and has powers beyond our comprehension. He (or it I suppose) created the universe via the big bang and established extremely concise and delicate constants that rule the universe and were specifically set to allow the universe to exist and for life to exist too.

Hypothetical situation #2 - Against staggering odds the matter in the big bang that a. always existed or b. somehow spontaneously came into existence in some manner we do not currently know expanded under the rule constants that under current theory have no explanation as to not only how they were set but also how they were so precise, even a millionth off in the constant of gravitation would prevent the universe as we know it.

Which seems more likely to you? To me it is situation 1. To you it can be something different, and it obviously is. I don't expect to change your or anyone else's opinion on RCF. There are just holes in the atheist logic and other improbabilities that, to me, make me believe situation 1.

 

[Jack Brickman]

But that would mean that your argument isn't particularly convincing either...according to you.

And it's not. I can't prove God doesn't exist any more than he can prove that God does. That's really the brilliance of religion. They're selling an invisible product. Any scientific argument that you can come up with can be explained away with, "Well, that's how God intended it," or many other variations or sayings.

Also, I haven't really been actively trying to convince people that God doesn't exist in this topic. That's a practice I find pretty pointless. I've mostly been pointing out a lot of the bad logic that exists for why he does.

The reasoning for why I believe in god is that yes it makes more sense to me.

Hypothetical situation #1 - God exists and has powers beyond our comprehension. He (or it I suppose) created the universe via the big bang and established extremely concise and delicate constants that rule the universe and were specifically set to allow the universe to exist and for life to exist too.

Hypothetical situation #2 - Against staggering odds the matter in the big bang that a. always existed or b. somehow spontaneously came into existence in some manner we do not currently know expanded under the rule constants that under current theory have no explanation as to not only how they were set but also how they were so precise, even a millionth off in the constant of gravitation would prevent the universe as we know it.

Which seems more likely to you? To me it is situation 1. To you it can be something different, and it obviously is. I don't expect to change your or anyone else's opinion on RCF. There are just holes in the atheist logic and other improbabilities that, to me, make me believe situation 1.

And you don't think the odds are equally staggering that an all-powerful being not only exists, but created all of us for whatever reason and actually cares about us despite the fact that we are so far below his power and intellect? Is God a kid with an ant farm, only he expects the ants to build temples and worship him there?

I'd say the odds are equally staggering either way.

 

[Man Called X]

Completely different argument. My argument is that it is more likely that something created the universe and set certain constants that allow the universe to exist as it does than the idea that it all originated out of nothing and random chance, chances that are infinitesimally small. You can make the argument of parallel universes if you want I suppose, but that doesn't work for me. I'm not saying god exists because science can't prove that he doesn't exist, I'm saying that god is necessary since it makes more logical sense to me than just getting really really lucky (and not to mention the problem why the big bang happened and why, out of a billion quarks and anti quarks one extra quark existed - without it all matter would have eliminated itself).

Controlled chaos is personally the theory I subscribe to.

As to what best explains the universe, I tend to stick with the rubber band theory. Universe expands to the point where it can't control the expansion, and rubber bands backwards into itself, thus creating another big bang theory. But because I can't prove it by going backwards or forwards in time, clearly my theory has no logic to it, and the only logical conclusion is that some all mighty powerful being created everything, including himself. For all his infallibleness, he still managed to fuck up numerous times.

Ancient aliens explains your God, explains your angels that tried to overthrow god, explains the countless Gods that existed before the monotheistic God. It doesn't need to explain how the universe was created, because if the belief is that God created the universe, and God was really just an extinct alien race, we're no closer to the answer of how everything came into existence than we were believing that some magic power did it all. At least then I can account for the thousands of years of human history before the invention of a monotheistic God.

 

[Man Called X]

And it's not. I can't prove God doesn't exist any more than he can prove that God does. That's really the brilliance of religion. They're selling an invisible product. Any scientific argument that you can come up with can be explained away with, "Well, that's how God intended it," or many other variations or sayings.

Also, I haven't really been actively trying to convince people that God doesn't exist in this topic. That's a practice I find pretty pointless. I've mostly been pointing out a lot of the bad logic that exists for why he does.



And you don't think the odds are equally staggering that an all-powerful being not only exists, but created all of us for whatever reason and actually cares about us despite the fact that we are so far below his power and intellect? Is God a kid with an ant farm, only he expects the ants to build temples and worship him there?

I'd say the odds are equally staggering either way.

My best explanation was that we are just God's third grade science fair project that he got a blue ribbon for, and got stuffed underneath the bed to be forgotten about. Every couple thousand years, he cleans his rooms, finds the shoebox diarama that is our world, fucks some shit up, and tucks it back under the bed.

 

[Jack Brickman]

My best explanation was that we are just God's third grade science fair project that he got a blue ribbon for, and got stuffed underneath the bed to be forgotten about. Every couple thousand years, he cleans his rooms, finds the shoebox diarama that is our world, fucks some shit up, and tucks it back under the bed.

I can't subscribe to that theory because of how shitty my third grade science project holds up by comparison.