We have our first gay pro athlete.

[jay_em]

So you're saying that Christ has indeed been documented commenting on this issue?

Cool, show it to me.

No I'm saying their feelings on the issue is documented. I think you know where to find it...if you're so inclined.

 

[CornerThree]

The 6000 year old earth people are also pretty funny.

 

[JDeezy]

I'm gonna stick up for metalman. You guys are giving him a bad rap. Not sure I understand the issue with the arguments he's making here.

He's wrong. He's attributing spirituality and piety to those who deny it, and making the watchmaker argument... As if the universe was created with all physical laws in place, and as if all physical things are certain. Neither are true.

 

[JDeezy]

Einstein was a diest, not a christian but not an atheist. Show me where I argued for Christianity. I didnt. Just in some sort of creator.

So why did this some sort of creator create homosexuals?

 

[metalman213]

He's wrong. He's attributing spirituality and piety to those who deny it, and making the watchmaker argument... As if the universe was created with all physical laws in place, and as if all physical things are certain. Neither are true.

Never said Einstein was spiritual. Just that he believed in some kind of creator.

As for the second part, I am actually quite curious what you mean. Can you explain?

 

[metalman213]

So why did this some sort of creator create homosexuals?

Why did he create us? I'm not going to try to apply human reasoning to God's thinking. I don't see where homosexuality comes into what I was saying.

 

[buzzdog]

No I'm saying their feelings on the issue is documented. I think you know where to find it...if you're so inclined.

Well there's the stuff in Leviticus or Romans. Beyond those widely quoted verses I wouldn't know. And as I've mentioned those are widely open to interpretation, and very dependent on who is doing the interpreting and what their intent and agendas are.

I take those as bits of recorded history as told by the author, interpreted a number of times by a number of interpreters all with a particular agenda that may not have always been pure and accurate transcription. And even if their intentions were perfect the simple act of taking text from one language to another opens up some pretty loose meanings being slanted one way or another.

And you had a good point that even the recorded words of Jesus were written down by several authors. But at least those were supposed to be spoken aloud from the source without taking a prophet's word that he's talking to God.

So when you say it's all documented if you don't have something other than these I think we're just covering the same ground here. I think we're just going to talk in circles and I understand I'm not going to change anything about your point of view here and that never was my intent. My only intent was to see if I could better understand your POV but as usual it comes back to the same things as usual, agreeing to disagree.

 

[jay_em]

Well there's the stuff in Leviticus or Romans. Beyond those widely quoted verses I wouldn't know. And as I've mentioned those are widely open to interpretation, and very dependent on who is doing the interpreting and what their intent and agendas are.

I take those as bits of recorded history as told by the author, interpreted a number of times by a number of interpreters all with a particular agenda that may not have always been pure and accurate transcription. And even if their intentions were perfect the simple act of taking text from one language to another opens up some pretty loose meanings being slanted one way or another.

And you had a good point that even the recorded words of Jesus were written down by several authors. But at least those were supposed to be spoken aloud from the source without taking a prophet's word that he's talking to God.

So when you say it's all documented if you don't have something other than these I think we're just covering the same ground here. I think we're just going to talk in circles and I understand I'm not going to change anything about your point of view here and that never was my intent. My only intent was to see if I could better understand your POV but as usual it comes back to the same things as usual, agreeing to disagree.

There's also some things stated by Paul and when you add them all together you get the complete picture. I guess where WE disagree is the whole they're open to interpretation thing. I personally think they're easily interpreted. We can talk circularly and around each other, but since the Bible is a big thing in Christianity it would be foolish to argue points from it as they'll be ignored by "you"

 

[The Oi]

He's wrong. He's attributing spirituality and piety to those who deny it, and making the watchmaker argument... As if the universe was created with all physical laws in place, and as if all physical things are certain. Neither are true.

He MIGHT be wrong if he was saying the things you're claiming he is. But he doesn't seem to be.

Either way, I'm just sitting back to watch the show now.

 

[JDeezy]

He MIGHT be wrong if he was saying the things you're claiming he is. But he doesn't seem to be.

Either way, I'm just sitting back to watch the show now.

"The show," i.e. metalman having a fundamental misunderstanding of he nature of the universe and making a very old philosophical argument, Minnow railing about demon-aliens, and anyone useful having abandoned the thread days ago.

I don't care if Einstein believed in God, Gaia, or nothing at all. What the hell does he know about this subject? "Hey guise a famous scientist in pop culture was a deist, therefore my belief in christianity is valid!"

I just wish kiddo would come back so he could tell us more about that story where a lady prayed a tattoo away (no joke guise). That sort of trick would have come in handy as my Aunt was being infested with cancer. I guess God works miracles only in situations where it can doubted as the work of a charlatan, and not where it would be obvious to be a bona fide miracle. Funny how that works. It's alright, my Aunt probably just didn't pray enough. She should've been more in God's favor so she didn't have to suffer a painful death.

Here's where I am coming from. I was born to a Catholic family, and my parents worked very hard to send me to Catholic school. Where sexually-frustrated nuns told children they were lazy brats and bullied children who needed the most help and obviously came from troubled homes (I'm not speaking about myself). Then we find out half the priests at that parish, ostensibly ordained by God as if that meant something, fucked little boys. They were doing it at my fathers high school too. So my family goes protestant.

In this sect I discover that apparently Catholics are non-christians doomed to hell. And yet these mission trips are a joke. These people have the nerve to hand a starving child a bible, because it is better to nourish the soul than the body. Protestants have even more slogans, mottos, and catchphrases parroted in their weekly meetings. But what do they have to show for it? There are no satisfactory answers here either. Why is their pain? Why is God hidden? Why does God choose to save some and not others? "It's a mystery."

So we're left talking in circles trying to make this invisible and frankly inconsequential God seem more plausible, willing to agree with anything laid down in these ancient scriptures. We're left putting meaning in trivial experiences. "I had to drive to the hospital and all the lights turned green on my way there. That's why I believe." Yet there are still no more significant answers proposed by religion. Science, however, continues to contribute. So when a scientific study concludes there is no intrinsic psychological or physical harm to a homosexual lifestyle, something that already seemed apparent to a non-prejudiced person, I put stock in those findings. In my eyes religion loses more credibility, whether it decides to ignore its bigoted scrawl or stubbornly excuse it. I've lost my patience for religion's wishful thinking.

 

[metalman213]

"The show," i.e. metalman having a fundamental misunderstanding of he nature of the universe and making a very old philosophical argument, Minnow railing about demon-aliens, and anyone useful having abandoned the thread days ago.

You keep saying my view of the universe is flawed but you've never explained how.

I don't care if Einstein believed in God, Gaia, or nothing at all. What the hell does he know about this subject? "Hey guise a famous scientist in pop culture was a deist, therefore my belief in christianity is valid!"

I was responding to someone saying that people who believe in God are stupid. If you think Einstein is stupid, then yeah. I never argued in favor of Christianity.

I just wish kiddo would come back so he could tell us more about that story where a lady prayed a tattoo away (no joke guise). That sort of trick would have come in handy as my Aunt was being infested with cancer. I guess God works miracles only in situations where it can doubted as the work of a charlatan, and not where it would be obvious to be a bona fide miracle. Funny how that works. It's alright, my Aunt probably just didn't pray enough. She should've been more in God's favor so she didn't have to suffer a painful death.

Yea that was odd. My father and grandfather must not have prayed enough either while they were being killed by cancer.

Here's where I am coming from. I was born to a Catholic family, and my parents worked very hard to send me to Catholic school. Where sexually-frustrated nuns told children they were lazy brats and bullied children who needed the most help and obviously came from troubled homes (I'm not speaking about myself). Then we find out half the priests at that parish, ostensibly ordained by God as if that meant something, fucked little boys. They were doing it at my fathers high school too. So my family goes protestant.

In this sect I discover that apparently Catholics are non-christians doomed to hell. And yet these mission trips are a joke. These people have the nerve to hand a starving child a bible, because it is better to nourish the soul than the body. Protestants have even more slogans, mottos, and catchphrases parroted in their weekly meetings. But what do they have to show for it? There are no satisfactory answers here either. Why is their pain? Why is God hidden? Why does God choose to save some and not others? "It's a mystery."

So we're left talking in circles trying to make this invisible and frankly inconsequential God seem more plausible, willing to agree with anything laid down in these ancient scriptures. We're left putting meaning in trivial experiences. "I had to drive to the hospital and all the lights turned green on my way there. That's why I believe." Yet there are still no more significant answers proposed by religion. Science, however, continues to contribute. So when a scientific study concludes there is no intrinsic psychological or physical harm to a homosexual lifestyle, something that already seemed apparent to a non-prejudiced person, I put stock in those findings. In my eyes religion loses more credibility, whether it decides to ignore its bigoted scrawl or stubbornly excuse it. I've lost my patience for religion's wishful thinking.

Thats very interesting, thanks for sharing. I've lost almost all of my family members, and most of them while I was really young. There are arguments for a personal god that I can make but I feel it would be useless to people who are dead set on being atheists and are unable to think with an open mind. I will say that, although I haven't argued in favor of Christianity, I am a christian. And also, you can be upset with a lack of reasons for those questions you asked: why is there pain? Why do some people die and others don't? These are questions that no one can answer, but I can't expect them too. It would be fruitless to try to reason with God, a being that supposedly knows everything when we are limited to our very narrow scope of knowledge and reasoning.

 

[Randolphkeys]

I don't want to come across as Martin fucking Luther, but you have to separate the good intentions of the Bible as a historical document and society today. There are valuable lessons in how a society should operate in the Judeo-Christian Bible. Thou shall not kill: good advice. Western societies have spent thousands of years finding exceptions to the rule, but it is a great goal to aspire to.

In the case of homosexuality, there is one line that creates a statement on a homosexual act. As society has progressed, the rule may not be as valuable.

Now the general spirit of the Bible is one of creating a society that is kind and thinks of others. I become dissapointed when bigoted people use Christianity as a cloak for remaining a bigot. That goes against what I was taught in a Catholic grade school, high school, undergrad and graduate school.

The Bible has plenty of good advice, which passages you focus on are you own opinions.

 

[Jack Brickman]

I don't want to come across as Martin fucking Luther, but you have to separate the good intentions of the Bible as a historical document and society today. There are valuable lessons in how a society should operate in the Judeo-Christian Bible. Thou shall not kill: good advice. Western societies have spent thousands of years finding exceptions to the rule, but it is a great goal to aspire to.

You don't think we would have figured out it wasn't a great idea to allow murder without the Bible to guide us? Many non-Christian countries haven't had a problem with that. Come on, man.

 

[jay_em]

I just wish kiddo would come back so he could tell us more about that story where a lady prayed a tattoo away (no joke guise). That sort of trick would have come in handy as my Aunt was being infested with cancer. I guess God works miracles only in situations where it can doubted as the work of a charlatan, and not where it would be obvious to be a bona fide miracle. Funny how that works. It's alright, my Aunt probably just didn't pray enough. She should've been more in God's favor so she didn't have to suffer a painful death.

Here's where I am coming from. I was born to a Catholic family, and my parents worked very hard to send me to Catholic school. Where sexually-frustrated nuns told children they were lazy brats and bullied children who needed the most help and obviously came from troubled homes (I'm not speaking about myself). Then we find out half the priests at that parish, ostensibly ordained by God as if that meant something, fucked little boys. They were doing it at my fathers high school too. So my family goes protestant.

In this sect I discover that apparently Catholics are non-christians doomed to hell. And yet these mission trips are a joke. These people have the nerve to hand a starving child a bible, because it is better to nourish the soul than the body. Protestants have even more slogans, mottos, and catchphrases parroted in their weekly meetings. But what do they have to show for it? There are no satisfactory answers here either. Why is their pain? Why is God hidden? Why does God choose to save some and not others? "It's a mystery."

Kind of funny how that whole dynamic works. Having many trial-some things happen in my life and wanting (AND FINDING) answers to some of those questions and more is what led me to my beliefs.

 

[Man Called X]

Blah. tried to post a video of Antoine Dodson who is now claiming to not be gay. His answers were funny and thus I wanted to post them here. But boo, the video didn't embed properly.