Why is Jordan the Goat?

[David.]

I just want to stir shit up....

Who wins, prime LBJ vs prime MJ, one-on-one, call your own fouls, best to 20?

I feel like bigs with skill will always win one on one.

He would snatch every telling rebound, I don't think either would dribble past each other.

Depends on if mjs shots are going in maybe?

 

[Andrew]

I feel like bigs with skill will always win one on one.

He would snatch every telling rebound, I don't think either would dribble past each other.

Depends on if mjs shots are going in maybe?

I think LBJ posts up MJ A LOT!

 

[godfather]

He doesn't hold the most records, championships, or have the best all around stats. The argument ESPN uses is that Jordan won 6 championships and never lost in the nba finals. By that logic I guess Tim Duncan and who ever played on those old Celtics are the next best players. Also by saying he never lost in the finals they're giving him sole credit for wins and no blame for losses in 85-90/95.

He has the highest PER ever. He has the highest WS/48 percentage of all-time. He has the highest point per game average.

The finals argument is stupid, but that's not why he's the greatest ever. He has a large amount of championships (6) and the modern day stats, and advanced analytical stats all backing up the claim he's the GOAT.

So I don't really understand what you're saying. Jordan has the highest career PER of all-time. He has the highest per scoring average all-time. The greatest WS/48 percentage. He's 4th all-time in actual Win Shares. He'd have easily surpassed everyone if he played longer.

He's second all-time in VOP (value over placement) LeBron is first. And second all-time in box plus/minus, again LeBron is first in that.

So all the meaningful statistics, Jordan is right there. If not number one.

So the bigger question is, how is he not the greatest of all-time?

I think LeBron is in his neighbor. No disputing that. As much as I want LeBron to surpass him, I think it's going to be very hard to pull that off.

 

[PIP]

Rob, you kind of ignored the point I made in the second post in this thread.. You again ask, why is Jordan the best -- and I ask you in return -- have you ever watched him play basketball?

It seems you haven't.

And I don't mean live, I mean period. If you watch him play the game, you'll understand quite quickly why he's considered the best player of all time.

He's kinda ignoring a lot

 

[PIP]

Uhh so were the guys who played in the 60s lol. At the 50 greatest players ceremony the announcer called wilt the greatest player ever.

Maybe that was that announcers opinion ? Maybe Wilt asked him to call him that whereas Jordan didn't even think to do so.... Advantage Wilt...

 

[godfather]

....because Magic Johnson's career was cut short.

Nah. Magic Johnson was reluctant to admit to this either. But when they played on the Dream Team in '92, and were going against each other in some very intense practices. He and Larry Bird discussed it, and finally both agreed, Jordan was on another level of them.

Magic was still good, but was also on the tail spin of his career. What gets lost is what happens if Jordan didn't retire and go play baseball?

I still think he left during the prime of his career. And missed two years, and came back, and then won three titles (after having a little bump in the road at first), almost like it was nothing.

 

[gourimoko]

Why don't you give me your opinion instead of asking me if I saw him play.

Because how I answer your question will be based on whether or not you saw him play...

I could go on a lengthy statistical argument trying to prove how Jordan is better than every other player who has ever played; but the problem with that is that I'm assuming you both appreciate and understand those statistics and also that we can agree upon a methodology that would demonstrate "best player."

Or, I could go on to an analytical argument regarding how Jordan played based on observation; which I think is more sound, but again, in order for me to do this, I'd need to know if you actually watched him play basketball.

Based on your first post, and every other post in this thread; it seems as though you've never watched him play. In fact, I'm almost certain of that. So it begs the question as to how you can be comfortable even approaching this question without first evaluating him play basketball (i.e., watching him play)?

My suggestion to you is, before we even approach the topic, to just go watch him play. Then you can come back and present an argument as to who is or isn't the best, rather than asking the more nebulous question as to why everyone would argue that he is.

 

[David.]

To be fair per is based on the average play of the rest of the league.

One could use that to further your argument, whether it's "the rest of the league is much much better now" or "mj was literally that much better than everyone else and the numbers show it"

 

[godfather]

To be fair per is based on the average play of the rest of the league.

One could use that to further your argument, whether it's "the rest of the league is much much better now" or "mj was literally that much better than everyone else and the numbers show it"

There were some absolutely great players in Jordan's era. Shaquille O'Neal and David Robinson rank in the top-5 PER of all-time.

Charles Barkley is ranked 11th. Malone 15th. Olajuwon 16th. I don't buy today's players are superior to Jordan's era at all. It's just the game has changed, and its more perimeter oriented. Sure, I think today's perimeter players are better. But Jordan played in an era where big men were still truly dominant.

The big men in Jordan's era is much better by a large margin. And don't forget, Jordan played in the 80s. It wasn't just the 90s. He played in the era of Kareem, Magic, Bird, Erving, etc... Even a younger Kobe Bryant in the late 90s. Penny Hardaway and Grant Hill were superstars until injuries sidelined them. So he's gone against a vast variety of great players from different eras.

 

[GreasySpread36]

I watched MJ plenty, in person and on TV, but I don't necessarily think it's an open-and-shut thing that he's the GOAT. I think Kareem has a real argument- he won six titles with two different franchises (including one with a third-year expansion team) and was without question the best player on three of the title-winning teams he played with in Los Angeles. And basketball being a big man's game, the fact that Kareem was 7'2" to MJ's 6'4" gives him the edge, IMO.

I don't go in much for analytical arguments; given Kareem's combination of size and skill, how long he was effective (he was arguably the best player in the NBA for a good 10-12 years) and that he was the main man on four title teams with two different franchises; all of that gives him a real argument for GOAT status. I'm not saying categorically that MJ isn't the GOAT; just that the debate isn't necessarily settled.

 

[Cratylus]

Why is Jordan the Goat?

 

[Simon]

Why don't you give me your opinion instead of asking me if I saw him play.

It is a fair question. Have you ever watched him play? Like clips on YouTube, etc.?

 

[Jordan]

There were some absolutely great players in Jordan's era. Shaquille O'Neal and David Robinson rank in the top-5 PER of all-time.

Charles Barkley is ranked 11th. Malone 15th. Olajuwon 16th. I don't buy today's players are superior to Jordan's era at all. It's just the game has changed, and its more perimeter oriented. Sure, I think today's perimeter players are better. But Jordan played in an era where big men were still truly dominant.

The big men in Jordan's era is much better by a large margin. And don't forget, Jordan played in the 80s. It wasn't just the 90s. He played in the era of Kareem, Magic, Bird, Erving, etc... Even a younger Kobe Bryant in the late 90s. Penny Hardaway and Grant Hill were superstars until injuries sidelined them. So he's gone against a vast variety of great players from different eras.

Don't forget Isaiah Thomas and Gary Payton. The stars in the 80s/90s were just as good, if not better than the ones today. The biggest difference, imo, is the role players right now are better than they were then (again, I wasn't watching basketball as I was six years old in 1998 and started following the Lakers at that point, so I could be wrong).

 

[godfather]

Don't forget Isaiah Thomas and Gary Payton. The stars in the 80s/90s were just as good, if not better than the ones today. The biggest difference, imo, is the role players right now are better than they were then (again, I wasn't watching basketball as I was six years old in 1998 and started following the Lakers at that point, so I could be wrong).

Yeah, I never understood why people just focus on the 90s. Jordan actually did majority of his damage in the 80s. He just had really, really horrific teams. But he was dominant in the 80s, too.

 

[godfather]

It's totally reasonable to see Jordan as the GOAT. But I think one reason why everyone sees the choice as so clear is that Jordan was the most visually impressive/flashy great offensive player of all time. A guy like Kareem was offensively deadly due to size and technique (the skyhook). For Magic, he wasn't a great leaper or incredibly athletic but his passing and decisionmaking were all-time great.

But Jordan dominated offensively as a smaller perimeter player (he's the smallest of all the guys in the GOAT conversation) and he did it through his leaping ability, quickness, and athleticism. Of course he had superb technique as well (e.g. moving to the turnaround jumper as he aged). But if you look at all the greatest players Jordan was the one who just made the most obviously jaw-dropping plays. I think a guy like Kareem often gets underrated because his game was so smooth, plus people don't credit the giant players as much because they are less relatable.

One guy who shouldn't be in the conversation for GOAT at all is Kobe. Drives me a little nuts that he is.

This needs to be stated though. When MJ came back, and his explosion wasn't the same. And he was forced to played more below the rim, at the age of 34 years old.

He virtually became a mid to high post player, and was still the greatest in the game. I think that validates how dynamic and versatile he was. If anything, his athleticism kinda makes him under appreciated...

I just found it impressive when you took away his explosion he was still the GOAT.