Why is Jordan the Goat?

[cavsfever]

This needs to be stated though. When MJ came back, and his explosion wasn't the same. And he was forced to played more below the rim, at the age of 34 years old.

He virtually became a mid to high post player, and was still the greatest in the game. I think that validates how dynamic and versatile he was. If anything, his athleticism kinda makes him under appreciated...

I just found it impressive when you took away his explosion he was still the GOAT.

Very true, but also worth noting that he was 31 when he came back and some of his leaping ability/explosion was still there. I felt like by his age 34 season (his last championship) you were starting to see serious deterioration in his skills as compared to his peak seasons, e.g. during his first threepeat. His efficiency percentages by that point were looking more like Kobe Bryant, and he was becoming heavily dependent on the refs (averaging 9-10 FTAs per game while shooting in the 45% range from the field and very poorly from 3). I feel like by that year you could make a decent argument that he was no longer the best player in the league, although he was obviously in the top few.

He was an incredibly shrewd and canny player but his game was somewhat dependent on athleticism. Not really a knock as that is true for all NBA players. It just goes to show that no one beats time.

 

[cavsfever]

Also, perhaps this belongs in the Lebron thread, but I have always felt that Lebron did himself somewhat of a disservice by his focus on Jordan as his idol, since Lebron's skills and body type are so different than Jordan. Early in his career Lebron did have some of Jordan's incredible body control while in the air. But in general Lebron is just not best served by thinking of himself as a perimeter scorer who takes over games through volume scoring outbursts. He can do that, which speaks to his greatness, but he doesn't have Jordan's skills in that area and never will. I feel like he's done himself a disservice at certain points by trying to play that way. It seems connected to the way he occasionally over-ISOs.

 

[JMoneyYourHoney]

As much as I want LeBron to surpass him, I think it's going to be very hard to pull that off.

I think if the '11 Finals didn't happen (at least the way they did) LeBron would have had a real chance.

At the moment, I think LeBron has a real chance to be seen as the undisputed #2, but knocking Jordan off of that pedestal seems insurmountable.

 

[cavsfever]

Lebron's two great missed opportunities to boost his legacy were the 2011 and 2015 Finals. They could have and should have won in 2011 but the rest of the team let him down and he deferred too much/got confused in the face of Dallas' Lebron-centric defense. In 2015, he clearly could have won with a healthy team.

 

[JMoneyYourHoney]

Lebron's two great missed opportunities to boost his legacy were the 2011 and 2015 Finals. They could have and should have won in 2011 but the rest of the team let him down and he deferred too much/got confused in the face of Dallas' Lebron-centric defense. In 2015, he clearly could have won with a healthy team.

Not only that but as I mentioned in the LeBron thread, his first 7 years here were, sorry to say it, a colossal waste. You give him just one 20ppg player and he likely wins a ring or two.

 

[godfather]

I think if the '11 Finals didn't happen (at least the way they did) LeBron would have had a real chance.

At the moment, I think LeBron has a real chance to be seen as the undisputed #2, but knocking Jordan off of that pedestal seems insurmountable.

He might eventually been seen as greater than Kareem, hard to say. I think Kareem is pretty under appreciated though. I guess the longer you've not played, the less appreciated you get it seems.

But I think odds of LeBron surpassing Jordan, where its recognized that way nationally. Is very, very low. I think he'd have to do a lot. And maybe Jordan is seen as too invincible, and that has distorted people's opinions too much as well.

But as of now, Jordan is still convincingly the greatest ever. That pains me to say it, because I didn't enjoy him tormenting us. When he entered your building, fear is what others felt. That's GOAT material.

 

[JMoneyYourHoney]

But as of now, Jordan is still convincingly the greatest ever. That pains me to say it, because I didn't enjoy him tormenting us. When he entered your building, fear is what others felt. That's GOAT material.

Yeah Jordan's psychological advantage over his opponents is something I don't think any other player as ever had. When people fantasize about a head-to-head Jordan/LeBron matchup, I imagine where LeBron's head would be and if Jordan would be able to mentally phase him the way he did so many other players.

The Jordan mystique has built to almost hyperbolic levels and LeBron has been such a longtime admirer, but if they played in the same era how would it have unfolded? You put LeBron on those early 90s Cavs teams and do we dismantle Jordan and the Bulls?

 

[David.]

Where's that graphic priceftw posted about playoff performances

 

[godfather]

Yeah Jordan's psychological advantage over his opponents is something I don't think any other player as ever had. When people fantasize about a head-to-head Jordan/LeBron matchup, I imagine where LeBron's head would be and if Jordan would be able to mentally phase him the way he did so many other players.

The Jordan mystique has built to almost hyperbolic levels and LeBron has been such a longtime admirer, but if they played in the same era how would it have unfolded? You put LeBron on those early 90s Cavs teams and do we dismantle Jordan and the Bulls?

LeBron on those early 90s Cavs teams, the Bulls would have no chance. None. Those Cavs teams were deeper, and overall more talented. They just had no one even close to the level of Jordan. If they had a LeBron, then the Bulls would have never beaten those Cavs teams.

Jordan was not invincible. It took him awhile to surpass the Pistons, they could never beat Bird's Celtics. Those teams were just much, much better than his Bulls at the time.

Once they drafted Pippen and Grant. And they finally developed into stars, that's when they were able to do something. Before then though, some of those Bulls teams were sadder than some of the Cavs teams LeBron had to be honest. They were garbage.

 

[PIP]

LeBron on those early 90s Cavs teams, the Bulls would have no chance. None.

LeBron on those early Cavs teams the entire league would have been like WTF is this ??

Just like when Jordan hit the scene in 84

 

[cavsfever]

Yeah Jordan's psychological advantage over his opponents is something I don't think any other player as ever had. When people fantasize about a head-to-head Jordan/LeBron matchup, I imagine where LeBron's head would be and if Jordan would be able to mentally phase him the way he did so many other players.

The Jordan mystique has built to almost hyperbolic levels and LeBron has been such a longtime admirer, but if they played in the same era how would it have unfolded? You put LeBron on those early 90s Cavs teams and do we dismantle Jordan and the Bulls?

Based on what Lebron did with far, far inferior teams in his first seven years here it's hard to believe he wouldn't have taken Daugherty/Nance/Price/Ehlo plus some quality depth to more than one championship. That team had more talent than our current team minus Lebron. They were only missing a superstar.

 

[godfather]

Based on what Lebron did with far, far inferior teams in his first seven years here it's hard to believe he wouldn't have taken Daugherty/Nance/Price/Ehlo plus some quality depth to more than one championship. That team had more talent than our current team minus Lebron. They were only missing a superstar.

They would have had a big-4. With Nance, LB, Price and Brad.

There was no Kyrie. We're going on the basis Daugherty and Price are healthy and in their prime of course. What often gets lost. Not only because of his injuries, because of the amount of GREAT centers during that era. Daugherty was a hall of fame caliber center.

I think he'd be the best center in the game if he played today. In the heart of his career he was putting up 21 and 10, averaging 3 assists a game. The guy retired at 28 because of a bad back. Not sure we ever really saw him in his prime either. Which sucks.

Definitely the most talented center we've ever had. With Price and LeBron playing pick and roll, man, they'd dominate a lot of good teams from that era.

The depth they had would have put GS's to shame too. They had some really good players off the bench. I still maintain those yearly 90s teams were some of the most well put together Cav teams we've ever seen. Trading Harper was gigantic mistake though.

They just didn't have a LeBron or even a Kyrie. But hell, those guys don't grow on a trees either. I wouldn't put Harper on either level, but he was really good and definitely an all-star caliber player at that time. If they kept Harper, I think they get at least one title.

 

[Tornicade]

Russell was one of the smartest players to play the game but he couldn't dunk from the free throw line.

You could argue that a Prime Bill Russell on a contender would of beat Jordan. but Jordan would of beat him to.

Bill Russell brought the NBA into people homes and hearts.
Dr J Dazzled them with his athleticism and flair
Magic and Bird brought intense rivalries to the league to the level of college football and the NFL.
Michael Jordan redefined the game nd took the NBA to a whole new level.

Kobe was another version of Micheal just as Tim Duncan was another version of Bill Russell.

Michael himself looked like he was gonna be another version of DR J but he took it to another level.

Lebron has been separating himself from Oscar Robertson but even if James establishd himself as a better overall basketball player. Jordan will still be the GOAT,

 

[godfather]

Russell was one of the smartest players to play the game but he couldn't dunk from the free throw line.

You could argue that a Prime Bill Russell on a contender would of beat Jordan. but Jordan would of beat him to.

Bill Russell brought the NBA into people homes and hearts.
Dr J Dazzled them with his athleticism and flair
Magic and Bird brought intense rivalries to the league to the level of college football and the NFL.
Michael Jordan redefined the game nd took the NBA to a whole new level.

Kobe was another version of Micheal just as Tim Duncan was another version of Bill Russell.

Michael himself looked like he was gonna be another version of DR J but he took it to another level.

Lebron has been separating himself from Oscar Robertson but even if James establishd himself as a better overall basketball player. Jordan will still be the GOAT,

Depends on which team. Any contender team, or Russell on those Celtic teams? Those are some of the best teams ever. So they probably would have won.

And I don't think Jordan, even his 72 win team, would have beaten Magic's '87 Lakers team. I think that's the best modern basketball of all-time IMO. That team was just so loaded, up and down the roster.

Maybe he would have beaten Bird's teams. I think they'd match up pretty well defensively, but even that's a push. Overall, those Celtic teams still had more talent. I don't think Pippen would have had that much of an effect on Bird. That would have been interesting match up though. But Larry could score on anyone, at will. Defensively though, Jordan's team would have matched up pretty well against them.

But Magic's '87 team, no way, they had way too many weapons for Pippen and Jordan to counter. And Magic out on the break, they would have gotten beat. They would play up tempo the entire game, and I don't think Jordan's Bulls would be able to stop them.

 

[Tornicade]

Depends on which team. Any contender team, or Russell's on those Celtic teams? Those are some of the best teams ever. So they probably would have won.

And I don't think Jordan, even his 73 win team, would have beaten Magic's '87 Lakers team. I think that's the best modern basketball of all-time IMO. That team was just so loaded, up and down the roster.

Maybe he would have beaten Bird's teams. I think they'd match up pretty well defensively, but even that's a push. Overall, those Celtic teams still had more talent. I don't think Pippen would have much effect on Bird. That would have been interesting match up though.

But Magic's '87 team, no way, they had way too many weapons for Pippen and Jordan to counter. And Magic out on the break, they would have gotten beat.

the same 87 team that came back the next year and had a 7 game series in the conference and finals
This is essentially the same team that got knocked out by Houston just a season before.

You really think Russell doesnt lose a few series to the Jordan bulls? with a version of Michael Jordan, Pippen and Rodman

The 80's Pitsons, Celtics, and Lakers were fantastic teams. I wouldn't ever count out a prime Jordan in finals