Z chatter

[Jon]

Re: Cavs Media Day

Watching women take their clothes off, dancing, and drinking non-dehydrating drinks much less of a strain on the body.

Good idea.

For that much money, I sure hope they were buying the non-dehydrating variety ...

 

[narbar32]

Re: Cavs Media Day

I'm tired of Z as a Cavalier. I must be trolling. Got it.

The new argument being created out of all this.. "It's WHEN he left... not THAT he left".. Got it.

I guess you missed the photo of Z shooting a jumper as a Cavalier. Because we haven't watched that game lead us nowhere for the past 15 years. He was supposed to learn how to do a few basic and simple things as a center, take it up strong and finish quickly. Maybe even get stronger from year to year instead of weaker. But you guys were just thankful he could walk.

And then you guys pouted along with "the man himself" when the people finally realized (in this case Mike Brown) that he's done and can't really help the team anymore. Classy as hell.

Whatever. Enjoy your Z.

Holy crap... you're really being genuine with this? My bad; it's sometimes hard to tell because some of your sentences are vague to the point of becoming incomprehensible ("pout with 'the man himself'" and "the people" and Mike Brown... huh?)

What are you trying to accomplish? You're tired of Z as a Cav? Enjoy my Z? What does that even mean?

From what I can gather, you're tired of people thinking fondly of Z because, despite a very successful NBA career compared to the vast majority of NBA players, especially those picked outside the lottery, he wasn't better than he was, particularly in regards to his strength. Why does that make you seemingly hate him so much? This is just weird. He loves the city, he was here for years, he apologized for chasing a ring at the very end, something tons of well-thought-of players do at the ends of their careers, and he's back in the FO. He was also our second best player for much of the Lebron years.

Do you hate Mark Price because he didn't dunk? Or because we never won a ring with him? What about Bernie, if you're also a Browns' fan? I saw the photo in what was previously the Media thread, which came right after a photo of him in his current capacity in the FO. Why does that rile you so?

 

[RTrees]

Re: Cavs Media Day

For that much money, I sure hope they were buying the non-dehydrating variety ...

Haha and wow..

And all of that bill was composed of dehydrating drinks (red bull included).

Fresh juice at that place is probably a much smaller percentage of a million dollars.

 

[KeyzerSozee]

Anyone who doesn't think Z loves Cleveland, go to the Kennilworth in Lakewood. He'll probably play pool with you and buy you a pitcher.

Sure great he got a job, but this is his home. He loves the City, I have seen him and talked to him (when younger my dad did- my dad is Lithuanian) from everywhere from Great Northern, Bowling Alleys, to Sitting next to him at movies at Crocker (I have to guess he lives in Westlake). The only thing that ever surprised me is he was shy even speaking Lithuanian.

 

[RTrees]

Re: Cavs Media Day

Holy crap... you're really being genuine with this? My bad; it's sometimes hard to tell because some of your sentences are vague to the point of becoming incomprehensible ("pout with 'the man himself'" and "the people" and Mike Brown... huh?)

What are you trying to accomplish? You're tired of Z as a Cav? Enjoy my Z? What does that even mean?

From what I can gather, you're tired of people thinking fondly of Z because, despite a very successful NBA career compared to the vast majority of NBA players, especially those picked outside the lottery, he wasn't better than he was, particularly in regards to his strength. Why does that make you seemingly hate him so much? This is just weird. He loves the city, he was here for years, he apologized for chasing a ring at the very end, something tons of well-thought-of players do at the ends of their careers, and he's back in the FO. He was also our second best player for much of the Lebron years.

Do you hate Mark Price because he didn't dunk? Or because we never won a ring with him? What about Bernie, if you're also a Browns' fan? I saw the photo in what was previously the Media thread, which came right after a photo of him in his current capacity in the FO. Why does that rile you so?

Whoa.. I hate the guy now? News to me..

You sure I'm the troll?

I like a lot of things about Z, and I respect him for what he DOES do. But the worship and rationalization of how different he is from anybody else that ring chased is absolutely absurd. It's what he DOESN'T do that I'm probably more frustrated with Ferry about, for not bringing in a guy, even to add to Z, that can do those things (minus the modest attempts with past their prime C's like Wallace, Shaq).

It just doesn't balance out. I'm trying to understand why people love Z so much as a player. What he did on the court really isn't all that accomplished, especially if you value high pressure victories. He was a good regular season player. I give him my respect as a basketball player. He's better than me in basketball (or was at one point), so I'm not going to talk shit.

But the story of Z is probably a whole different animal all together, that I guess I do have a problem with, because it's not accurate. It's like you guys need a "legend" to worship to the point you'll just make one up. Yeah, you guys (if you think I'm talking about you, I probably am). He didn't do much here. He broke his feet. Got paid millions to rehab instead of retire. He took that deal. Recovered a bit, played some more ball. Some good games, some bad. Shrunk in the playoffs. Pouted then left town. I'm not mad at him. Just telling what I saw. I didn't have to read any newspaper articles or learn about what he said when he left to shape my opinion. I watched the games. It's a basketball opinion. Not a judgement on him as a human being. We needed strong finishers down low around a creator like LeBron. Z had other attributes. Not the ones we needed when we needed them from that position. But I applaud his efforts and contributions. Just not going to turn him into a legend or hero.

In the interest of basketball and Cavs success, I'd have liked to see them go in a different direction a little sooner, or an additional direction. Pardon me for having that position. I really just want to win. The politeness of how he left the Cavs just doesn't weigh in on my opinion of Z. All that off the court stuff really doesn't matter to me. (unless off the court stuff affects on the court stuff, alcohol for instance). I'm not anti Z. I'm anti BS. There's stuff Z did on the court (good). And stuff he did off (great). Let us not blur or remove the line between the two.

 

[Maximus]

Re: Cavs Media Day

The numbers don't lie - Lebron and Z were a very successful pair on the court. Year in and year out, the +/- numbers when they were paired on the court together were great. The Cavs analyzed these numbers over and over trying to figure out what pairings and 5 man rotations worked best for Lebron...Z wasn't the problem. For example, when Drew and Lebron were on the court - not good. Z spread the floor and opened the paint so Lebron could get to the hole easier, he got them a lot of 2nd chances, it's that simple. Lebron knew where Z would be, Z knew where Lebron wanted him to be. They had outstanding chemistry. Was Z pretty to watch? No. Did they get a ring? No. But, luck and injuries played a big role in that.

 

[Maximus]

Re: Cavs Media Day

Pouted then left town.

Huh??? When did this happen?

 

[Giambiwannabe7]

Re: Cavs Media Day

First, all good points, I'll try to lighten up.

On the first bold, how did that turn out for us? Not saying it's the reason we don't have a ring, but would Michael have hit the game winning shot if Ehlo's mind and body were a smidgen quicker? Bonding is great, and important, but so is getting the body and mind to perform at top level. There are always exceptions perhaps due to personalities of course, and occasionally some beer can be good for a guy, help them settle their mind the right way or get out of a mental funk.

But overall, as a habit or daily thing, alcohol dehydrates the body (brain included) and muscles don't behave as efficiently. Cramping, muscle tears, general tightness, and in my opinion, increased injuries are what you get when mixing alcohol with athletics. It should be avoided if possible. Sure your body can recover, but it's never as quickly as most people think imo.

On the second bold... No, I disagree. So many of these Cavs are super young, maybe not even old enough to go to a bar (although Dec 1 is Waiters' 21st birthday!) They don't know how to limit themselves yet, and will surely over extend their consumption causing damage to their bodies. I did. You did. It's how we learned to handle our alcohol. But I'd like to suggest that such self discovery could be put on hold for 10 years, or til retirement, when they'll have all the time in the world to go to bars. I'd rather wait, and enjoy a beer at the bar with a Cavalier when his career is over, so he can show me the Championship rings he's wearing up close.

I never saw any of them getting hammered by any means. I think they all just enjoyed being around each other in a non bball environment. I think they also, most of the time, got a kick of the fan interactions they had in a pretty relaxed atmosphere. These were guys who truly appreciated how much they were admired by the fans.

I would never in a million years try to correlate our horrible misfortunes with MJ to these guys having a bit of a social life. Did all those rings come as some sort of gift from other teams alcohol starved, dehydrated muscles? Come on, man. And guys like MJ were notorious for their infamous night life. It works both ways there.

On the second bold, I think that's fairly narrow minded in all honesty. I think I'd rather have high character guys like KI, TT, TZ, etc all hanging out with each other. These kids are going to find themselves in sticky situations regardless of their company. It's hanging out with their teammates that can potentially save their asses. It's about having each others backs for the sake of the team. They can largely control that when they are all together. I'm not so sure that is the same when a bunch of old high school buddies wanna pay a visit to their now famous friend from way back. You try to completely bottle up a bunch kids that age and you're asking for more mischief that you can handle. The point is they will patrol themselves much better as a group, in most cases, than they will left to their own vices.

I guess it's a matter of viewpoint and opinion. Do you raise your kids in a box, sheltering them from all the potential bad in the world? Or do you teach them about what is out there and trust they will make good decisions, and let them see the world through their own eyes?

 

[Shakalu M.D.]

Re: Cavs Media Day

Haha and wow..

And all of that bill was composed of dehydrating drinks (red bull included).

Fresh juice at that place is probably a much smaller percentage of a million dollars.

That's kind of the point he was making, when hosting a club party or going to a strip club, you're going to drink alcohol. I can't believe you're trying to say Ehlo going having a beer is responsible for Jordan making the shot. I guarantee he didn't drink the night before that game.

 

[RTrees]

Re: Cavs Media Day

The numbers don't lie - Lebron and Z were a very successful pair on the court. Year in and year out, the +/- numbers when they were paired on the court together were great. The Cavs analyzed these numbers over and over trying to figure out what pairings and 5 man rotations worked best for Lebron...Z wasn't the problem. For example, when Drew and Lebron were on the court - not good. Z spread the floor and opened the paint so Lebron could get to the hole easier, he got them a lot of 2nd chances, it's that simple. Lebron knew where Z would be, Z knew where Lebron wanted him to be. They had outstanding chemistry. Was Z pretty to watch? No. Did they get a ring? No. But, luck and injuries played a big role in that.

Okay, now crunch those same numbers for playoff games, or regular season games against top 5 teams..

Who's our man.. Delonte West?

 

[RTrees]

Re: Cavs Media Day

That's kind of the point he was making, when hosting a club party or going to a strip club, you're going to drink alcohol. I can't believe you're trying to say Ehlo going having a beer is responsible for Jordan making the shot. I guarantee he didn't drink the night before that game.

Yeah, that's exactly what I said. Wasn't making another point, at all.

You're awesome.

 

[narbar32]

Re: Cavs Media Day

You sure I'm the troll?

No, I'm not sure of that. But your arguments are a bit of a moving target.

Cavs fans love Z. It obviously has a lot to do with stuff off of the court as well as what he did for about a decade for the team on the court. It was abundantly clear from the start of this conversation that you take issue with the amount of love he gets, period. You, however, were the one that made it purely about his basketball abilities; you're the one who drew a line of demarcation between Z the player and Z the person. We're not arguing over whether he should be in the HOF. You're literally arguing with those who simply hold Z in high regard, no matter the reasons informing such high regard.

You're attacking a false basketball idol of your own creation; in reality, many of the fans love Z so much specifically because of who he is, not merely because of what he did on the court. And you've been stating what we needed out of our center while Lebron was here as though it is fact, not simply your opinion. Debating what ifs is pretty futile, but I don't think it's unreasonable (especially given the stats) to opine that Z was a great fit with his tendency to space the floor and that perhaps HE wasn't the problem you're making him out to be. Maybe having a starting PF who wasn't a brain dead bag of shit (Gooden then JJ) would have helped. Or having anybody at SG for almost all of the years. Funny you should mention Delonte in another post, as he could have been the difference, were it not for how insanely sick / sickly insane he was (And he's also loved for what he did off the court as much as on it, including fucking Gloria, of course) And finally getting an average PG helped, but maybe a true PG would have helped more.

Regardless, you seem to be pointing the finger straight at Z as the reason we didn't win a sausage, whether you mean to or not; that's not something with which most will agree, even keeping in mind Z's weaknesses as a center. More importantly, he's loved to the extent he is because of who he is off the court as well. Nobody has placed any line between the two except you, which may explain why you're seeing it blurred in terms of fans' warm regard for the guy.

 

[Kouki]

Mixing alcohol and athletics can be incredibly beneficial, someone has never bowled, golfed, or played beer pong.

(trying to stop this Z discussion)

.....(it won't work, will it)

 

[Mr. Blonde]

so when will we get our Z statue? Because we all consider him such a legend. Definitely 1.b with Jim Brown as the greatest cleveland sports figure.

/sarcasm

Seriously, respect and admiration =/= irrational nostaligia and whorship.

 

[CleveRocks]

it is moronic to attack Z for playing 14 years in cleveland and one year in miami. His decision to leave, after he was traded and returned, did not amount to killing the franchise, but the Decision did amount to that. Z was never coy about leaving, he went about it the right way, and showed by his actions, that the fans in Cleveland mattered. Not so for the other idiot.

And Z returned to Ceveland, where he still lives and works. He does not go around pointing out that he is from Akron.. He is part of the community. So chill the fuck out.

if you have lived in Cleveland and grown any appreciation for it at all, you know that the ethnic diversity, which includes Lithuanians, is part of its mojo. Cleveland has its tough love, but its still midwest, its still welcomes people and it is still the historical melting pot. Z's experience in Cleveland is related to what Cleveland is. If you dont appreciate it, leave. Nobody will miss you.