#52 DeShone Kizer

[Randolphkeys]

Well for #1, Q-Tip, the success or failure of Paxton Lynch this season has no impact on Kizer, I am simply illustrating how a successful franchise is dealing with a hole at quarterback. I can absolutely tell you what the Browns have traditionally done since the return: overdraft a second tier QB prospect and tell the fan base he's the new franchise QB, then after running him out on the field too early the fans turn on him, then in three years he's holding a clipboard for some AFC West team. It's time to look at other approaches. I brought up Siemian because he was drafted late to be a backup but after several years of grooming he ended up their bridge QB. I suggest you read some quotes from Demaryous Thomas from last year if you believe there is a lot of confidence in Siemian as the QB going forward. Who knows, he may hold off Lynch one more year and improve himself. It's kind of like Kessler in that regard, both are young and have opposing strengths.

For #2, I can understand why Browns fans devalue a mid second round pick. The Browns have drafted like a Kindergartner who unlocked the liquor cabinet. On a franchise that isn't a train wreck, a mid second round pick is expected to be a starter, sooner rather than later. If you look at the history of drafts, the first round is going to be an impact starter, second round you are still hoping for a Pro Bowl type impact, but you can take a solid starter as the floor. Usually in the pick 50 range, there's 10-20 future Pro Bowlers still on the board, you just have to find the right guy. In fact, Jamie Collins was a #52 pick back in 2013. Calling that pick less valuable because technically the Browns had three higher picks is, well, semantically misleading.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Well for #1, the success or failure of Paxton Lynch this season has no impact on Kizer, I am simply illustrating how a successful franchise is dealing with a hole at quarterback. I can absolutely tell you what the Browns have traditionally done since the return: overdraft a second tier QB prospect and tell the fan base he's the new franchise QB, then after running him out on the field too early the fans turn on him, then in three years he's holding a clipboard for some AFC West team. It's time to look at other approaches.

No disagreement there. The question is whether Kizer was an "overdrafted second-tier prospect", or a Lynch-type first-tier prospect.

For #2, I can understand why Browns fans devalue a mid second round pick.[/quote]

I was talkinm about the team, not the fans.

Usually in the pick 50 range, there's 10-20 future Pro Bowlers still on the board, you just have to find the right guy. In fact, Jamie Collins was a #52 pick back in 2013. Calling that pick less valuable because technically the Browns had three higher picks is, well, semantically misleading.

I don't want to quibble about the numbers, but I'll just say that when it comes to franchise QB's in particular, you generally don't wait until your fourth pick in the draft to take one if you think he's on the board.

 

[Randolphkeys]

I don't want to quibble about the numbers, but I'll just say that when it comes to franchise QB's in particular, you generally don't wait until your fourth pick in the draft to take one if you think he's on the board.

I get it. Clearly the Browns didn't have him as a priority. I really liked this draft for the Browns because they recognized the talent at other positions besides QB. Going into the 2016 draft, it felt like a bad crop of prospects. Going into this draft? I was excited at just about every position except for QB.

Kizer was a value pick, but he wasn't exactly the guy I hoped the Browns would take when they were on the clock. But he is on the team now, and they took him high enough in a good draft to be given a shot at the starting job eventually. I just read these quotes from the front office that say he still has a long way to go. That seems like an undersell to give him a redshirt year.

 

[AZ_]

Little of the Browns failures at quarterback have involved sending players out "too early" in their careers.

If a team has good coaching, a good offensive line and a sustainable running game, that's far more important than some arbitrary time metric put in place that can't seemingly be quantified nor is universally used.

 

[Randolphkeys]

Little of the Browns failures at quarterback have involved sending players out "too early" in their careers.

If a team has good coaching, a good offensive line and a sustainable running game, that's far more important than some arbitrary time metric put in place that can't seemingly be quantified nor is universally used.

I've never been obsessive about time, but I wouldn't want to see Kizer starting when his footwork is still a mess and he hasn't yet been trained to see the whole field from the pocket. If he does both of those things better than the other two quarterbacks, put him out on the field.

But at Notre Dame, those were two areas where he wasn't ready for the NFL.

 

[sportscoach]

What is weird about this offseason, is I actually see some actual hope from the QB slot. We aren't just playing the rookie this season, he has to earn it. Whoever wins the spot, actually should put up decent numbers this season. We have a strong OLine, with athletic TEs, and solid RBs. We have some question marks with the depth at WR, but with the fact we have a major competition there could really elavate our current talent. 2 spots are set for Britt and Coleman and the other 3 spots will be between the other 9 WRs, who are 25 and younger. I am hoping that type of competition will bring out the best players possible at the position.

With our improved DLine, I am hoping it keeps down the opposing scores as well. Best thing for a young team and QB would be a running game you can do from start to finish. That takes pressure off the QB to have to make all the throws all the time. I personally feel Kizer is actually in a better situation than Watson is in Houston and I like his upside better. Now I think Watson will be like Young and RG3 play decently early, but fizzle out and never become much. Kizer is the guy who could be something in the NFL with the right development and coaches. I think that is all in place here and honestly I didn't like Kizer, but the pick makes sense and Hue at the end of the day, loves a challenge and if he succeeds with Kizer, it will really change around this franchise.

 

[Amherstcavsfan]

I've never been obsessive about time, but I wouldn't want to see Kizer starting when his footwork is still a mess and he hasn't yet been trained to see the whole field from the pocket. If he does both of those things better than the other two quarterbacks, put him out on the field.

But at Notre Dame, those were two areas where he wasn't ready for the NFL.

Hmm, I disagree here. One of Kizer's best attributes was seeing the whole field. He is quick to diagnose presnap and makes quick reads. Sometimes he does stick to his first option, but its not a constant thing.

Im not sure what we would be waiting for in starting him. Maybe they are encouraged by Osweiler but I dont think he is worth investing any time into at this point.

 

[CleveRocks]

Hmm, I disagree here. One of Kizer's best attributes was seeing the whole field. He is quick to diagnose presnap and makes quick reads. Sometimes he does stick to his first option, but its not a constant thing.

Im not sure what we would be waiting for in starting him. Maybe they are encouraged by Osweiler but I dont think he is worth investing any time into at this point.

On paper they have improved the line on both sides. If this turns into actual fact, and osweiler is good enough to win mostly, i think you ride that pony. If they feel Kizer is better, then you sub him in if osweiller gets hurt, or you trade osweiler while his value is up..

I dont expect the browns are ready to go deep in the playoffs this year. This will be a year where they improved on many points, and will evaluate what needs fixed next. Would not surprise me if the next focus is on running back, before they do something more at QB..

 

[Pick6]

Start the QB who gives us the best chance to win. IDGAF if its Kizer, KessGod, or Brock Lobster.

 

[Kbiz]

Little of the Browns failures at quarterback have involved sending players out "too early" in their careers.

If a team has good coaching, a good offensive line and a sustainable running game, that's far more important than some arbitrary time metric put in place that can't seemingly be quantified nor is universally used.

A stable foundation to lean on as a rookie QB is equally important as his actual ability to perform. Sure we've trotted guys out prematurely in the past but what choice did we have? Our FO has routinely shit the bed in predicting QB success at the professional level.

Using the precedent set by the past isn't an effective way to argue that Kizer shouldn't be trotted out early if he is deemed "ready" by this coaching staff. The god awful scouting by past regimes isn't dictating our efforts now.

It's not like Brandon Weeden, Brady Quinn, Colt McCoy, Ken Dorsey, Charlie Frye, or little fuckboy Manziel were going to be even above-average QB's if drafted by some other team. two of those guys are holding clipboards because there not good enough to start. The other four are out of the league because they're not good enough to even make a practice squad.

The only QB you could argue that we trotted out too early was Couch but again, what choice did we have?

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

On paper they have improved the line on both sides. If this turns into actual fact, and osweiler is good enough to win mostly, i think you ride that pony. If they feel Kizer is better, then you sub him in if osweiller gets hurt, or you trade osweiler while his value is up..

I dunno -- if they think Kizer is better, they should stick him in there regardless if Osweiler is hurt or not..

We spent a buttload of money improving our offensive line, and our defense overall. I think the other players on the team are owed having the guy with the best chance to win behind center. You don't build a winning culture by sandbagging.

There are plenty of QB's who didn't do well their rookie year, but weren't ruined by it. They learned, progressed, and did better their second year. I'm not saying to throw Kizer in there simply to give him experience. I'm saying to put him in there if he is deemed the best available QB, whether he's a rookie or not.

 

[Kbiz]

I'm not saying to throw Kizer in there simply to give him experience. I'm saying to put him in there if he is deemed the best available QB, whether he's a rookie or not.

This. This. This. If he is the best QB at the end of training camp, you start him. No amount of practice / pre-season reps hold the same value as regular season reps. A rookie QB is going to make mistakes. They're going to look downright shitty at times. All of that is valuable to the process. It's important for them to develop the resolve to learn from mistakes and correct them. The sooner a player develops that ability, the better. It sounds like Kizer is lightyears ahead of where coaches expected him to be in regards to learning the system. Good FO's recognize that and throw more at that type of guy to test their fortitude.

Holding him back simply because he is a rookie is a tired formula of the past. Teams do quick 180's all the time in the NFL. Just because we're "Da Browns" doesn't mean Kizer is destined to fail if he starts, unless you are a believer in the curse. If that's the case, go play with your voodoo doll in the corner but I am ready for the turnaround -- Kizer, Kessler, Osweiler; whoever the coaches deem ready to right the ship, i will support.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

This. This. This. If he is the best QB at the end of training camp, you start him. No amount of practice / pre-season reps hold the same value as regular season reps. A rookie QB is going to make mistakes. They're going to look downright shitty at times. All of that is valuable to the process. It's important for them to develop the resolve to learn from mistakes and correct them. The sooner a player develops that ability, the better. It sounds like Kizer is lightyears ahead of where coaches expected him to be in regards to learning the system. Good FO's recognize that and throw more at that type of guy to test their fortitude.

Holding him back simply because he is a rookie is a tired formula of the past. Teams do quick 180's all the time in the NFL. Just because we're "Da Browns" doesn't mean Kizer is destined to fail if he starts, unless you are a believer in the curse. If that's the case, go play with your voodoo doll in the corner but I am ready for the turnaround -- Kizer, Kessler, Osweiler; whoever the coaches deem ready to right the ship, i will support.

I'll just add that if (and I do think it is a pretty huge "if") Kizer is the opening day starter, it will be up to the coaching staff and FO to address shoot-from-the-hip fan overreaction. Actually, that pretty much goes for whenever he gets a chance to start.

 

[Randolphkeys]

Hmm, I disagree here. One of Kizer's best attributes was seeing the whole field. He is quick to diagnose presnap and makes quick reads. Sometimes he does stick to his first option, but its not a constant thing.

Im not sure what we would be waiting for in starting him. Maybe they are encouraged by Osweiler but I dont think he is worth investing any time into at this point.

I guess that was your view on him. I don't think he falls out of the first round of the draft if he made progressions that well. Greg Cosell voiced issues with his processing and the quickness he makes decisions in the pocket. Mike Maycock said he isn't ready to play in the NFL. The list goes on. It doesn't change that big powerful body and arm, which could end up carrying him to a very good career if he cleans up all the problems he displayed in college.

 

[AZ_]

There is no QB on this roster even remotely as talented as Kizer.

Not even close.

His relationship with Hue Jackson, and his improvement to understand the simple things in his dropback will dictate the teams willingness to play him.

I've got no issue with them starting him out of the gate, especially knowing that Hue isn't going to have him out there making multiple progression reads and simplifying the offense to take advantage of his strengths.

Anything that was said pre-draft becomes irrelevant after time developing under your head coach, your QB coach and off-season QB guru (in this case, Tom House).

Nobody, with the exception of maybe Jaworski, said that Prescott would be able to be a Year 1 guy. But if you simplify your skill-set, let him develop behind an offensive line and running game, you can win some games and give that QB the on-field experience that will be far more beneficial for his development than sitting on the bench.