czvo
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If that's the case, then they shouldn't have signed Channing and instead gone after someone that will move the needle.
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Channing Frye
- Thread starter bleedwineandgold03
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If that's the case, then they shouldn't have signed Channing and instead gone after someone that will move the needle.
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The disagrees on this post from the LeNutHuggers are hilarious to me.
Like, what the hell did you say that was wrong? Even leaving Channing Frye out of it because he's just a minimum player...
LeBron struck out swinging badly this summer in terms of recruiting marquee free agents to the fucking Lakers....he couldn't get 1 guy to go play with him in L.A. Not even his best friend CP3. Not even a meeting for the Lakers....
This is 1 year removed from Kyrie Irving requesting a trade, primarily because he no longer wanted to play with LeBron James.
Let's look at last summer some more...LeBron recruited 3 guys...
1. Wade- 20 pounds overweight the entire time, terrible locker room presence who divided an already fragile locker room and was such an asshole they had to trade him back to the Heat.
2. D Rose- Didn't fit right. Never passed the ball. Left the team for weeks to basically consider retirement. Got traded as salary filler, lol.
3. Jamal Crawford- LeBron recruited him but wanted us to give him the full MLE which meant we couldn't bring Cedi over and Crawford would have cost us like $25 million in tax penalties and kinda fell off big time last year.
Then we saw the team him and Magic "discussed for three hours" at LeBrons house. It's garbage. GM LeBron sucks. His recruiting power
I think it's a pretty clear and obvious fact that playing with LeBron, especially for better players like all-star and above, is not that attractive of a proposition anymore. They don't want to deal with all the drama, only for LeBron to get all the credit and none of the blame.... Even with Kawhi Leonard...soon as Bron went to the Lakers alone you have Shams basically saying "I think Leonard would prefer the Clippers now, don't think he's entirely interested in playing with LeBron".
The other problem is that it's unclear if playing with LeBron actually helps these guys at all. A lot of the time, unless you're a role-playing big-man that he feeds dunks or a sharpshooter he feeds open threes, LeBron's full control over the offense and lack of willingness to play in a system actually tends to hurt guys with more advanced games because they don't get the opportunity to do the things they're good at. He completely neutered Chris Bosh and Kevin Love, two perennial allstar big-men, all-NBA level type players. Turned them into glorified Ryan Anderson's on offense most nights. Perimeter players sometimes have it even worse...no chance to get into a rhythm...all kinda of standing around and waiting for LeBron to do something after he breaks the play you're supposed to be running. Then when you do have the ball, you're at a disadvantage half the time because LeBron likes to walk to the half-court line and put his hands on his hips while he watches everyone else play 4 on 5. Then he still usually gets beat down the court for a transition lay-up after you miss a contested shot because it's 4v5.
Not surprised at WHO disagreed...same people that pretended it was totally cool that LeBron purposely played like dogshit for months and never tried on defense at all, ever. Of the "Bron gets all credit, no blame" ilk. They probably sat down in their fancy new LeBron Lakers jersey and typed his name into the search bar to see who was disparaging him today.
not really anyone out there that we can afford that will "move the needle"
We need to play the youth. Move the vets when good deals come along and wait a year to shed salary
Channing Frye at 2.3 million is a perfect player to come in and work with the young guys and/or simply lead by example. Solid pick up not signed to move the needle but to be a strong, high character for the upcoming season in Purgatory. That is all
Perfectly stated on all ends!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NobodyImportant
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A cheap stretch 5 to pair with either Nance or Tristan who is a great locker room guy? Love the signing.
dark2332
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I think lebron may have worn out his credibility. He seems to have "recruited" a number of guys, telling them about what they could accomplish together. What resulted was the King and his court so to speak.
weepinwillow
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I love that Channing is back. Always felt guilty that I basically clairvoyanced him to LA via my twitter account back in January:
@weepinwillow Jan 12
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#Cavs at #NBATradeDeadline should stress fit: JClarkson & Nance from #Lakers for cap room via Rose, Frye, Zizic +Cle pick.
I felt especially bad about this after seeing the dude with his kids right before the trade deadline eating at Red Robin (yuk, but my kids like it and I can have a beer). He looked like he knew he was at his last meal.. and it was fucking Red Robin. And here I am making twitter-gm deals for the guy.
(side note: good for Altman keeping Zizic out of the deal and parlaying Rose into Hood)
@weepinwillow Jan 12
More
#Cavs at #NBATradeDeadline should stress fit: JClarkson & Nance from #Lakers for cap room via Rose, Frye, Zizic +Cle pick.
I felt especially bad about this after seeing the dude with his kids right before the trade deadline eating at Red Robin (yuk, but my kids like it and I can have a beer). He looked like he knew he was at his last meal.. and it was fucking Red Robin. And here I am making twitter-gm deals for the guy.
(side note: good for Altman keeping Zizic out of the deal and parlaying Rose into Hood)
Cavatt
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Channing Frye who can rebound and defend would be a damn good player. Channing's biggest weakness IMO is rebounding. That is what is exciting about Billy is that he is actually a good rebounder. Noe, he is not a defender today, but he had the physical tools. He really needs to focus on defense to stick in the league. He can definitely learn a lot from Channing.
K1rieIrving>AllOtherPG's
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What a fantastic post! people who think LeBron actually makes other players better just don’t understand basketball or they’re letting their fanhood of LeBron cloud their judgement imo, finding open shooters on the 3PT line while everyone is just standing there watching him dribble is not making anybody better.
To add to that point, don’t forget that Paul George who basically wanted to be a Laker since he was a kid and play with his home town team chose to stay in Oklahoma playing with a stat chasing inefficient ball hog over going to the Lakers and playing in LeBrons System.
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Umm, it is also possible that the Lakers didn't see Channing as a fit for what they want to do. All their signings around LeBron this off-season are guys who defend very well on an island, and can create for themselves. Elite outside shooting hasn't been their vision. Channing is awful defending on an island and can't play against Golden State type teams because of it.
But you were on a roll here, IBWT. I almost hate to bring this up because Im entertained by anyone riffing a seething diatribe.
FrontPageNews
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LeLoser made players worse around him and made everyone dependent on his every move. I actually thought we played better with a winner like wade on the court who actually tried to play within a system and had a consept of team ball.
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Man I don't disagree. That's why I said "leaving Channing Frye out of it". I wasn't even counting that one against Bron! Because I'm not sure if the Lakers were competent enough to even want Frye back. That's why I riffed on just about everything else instead, lol.
priceFTW
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I’ve posted this before, but:
It’s very difficult to make an objective argument that LeBron doesn’t make his teammates better as far as winning is concerned (this stint, first stint, Miami). Other than Kyrie, I don’t see a single player on Bron’s teams who should have been developed to lead or given the ball to increase usage. I’ll get to Love and Wade and Bosh below.
Here’s a list of players coming into this season and how they did paired with LeBron at their peaks. Look at the variety in types of players. Maybe playing LeBron Ball didn’t develop them individually (but a player also has to take initiative and develop himself), but even if they had developed, would doing so and then increased usage lead to winning as much as we did? I don’t think it works to this extent and therefore, he’s maximized these players ability to contribute to winning. The Patriots care about how a player fits in their system. Yes, they want to develop everything, but not at the cost of how that player fits into the system and they’re praised for it becuse it’s all about winning. Now, the two organizations are different (crazy Dan, crazy LeBron, shit drafting, etc), but the fitting of players into a system (LeBron Ball in the Cavs’ case) to win is the same. The reason people don’t look at us somewhat similarily (besides the craziness) is because we didn’t win titles to create a dynasty and the only reason for that was a perfect storm of bullshit in Golden State that fucked it all up. I wrote about how historically great our three year run was and would have created a dynasty in any other era Everything Cavs Thread: Cabs or Cavs? Making it Rain with a pastor, BleacherRepcrt, & wine hats
REGULAR SEASON
Point of reference: Kobe/Shaq, +9.1, +10.9, +8.4, +10.1 in ‘01, ‘02, ‘03, ‘04 respectively; KD/Westbrook, +12.8 in 2016, +10.6 in 2015, +7.5 in 2014, +10.8 in 2013, +7.0 in 2012, +2.6 in 2011, +5.8 in 2010
LeBron paired With Shump, 2015, +19.2
With Big Ben, 2009, +18.6
With Andy V, 2010, +18.4
With Delly, 2016, +17.9
With Boobie, 2009, +17.3
With Moon, 2010, +17.3
With West, 2010, +17.0
With Mozgov, 2015, +16.8
With Battier, 2013, +16.1
With Shump, 2016, +15.8
With Big Z, 2010, +15.6
With West, 2009, +15.4
With Mo W, 2009, +15.4
With Big Z, 2009, +15.1
With Chalmers, 2013, +15.1
With Jamison, 2010, +15.1
With Wade, 2013, +14.8
With Birdman, 2013, +14.7
With TT, 2016, +14.6
With Wade, 2012, +14.1
With Boobie, 2010,+14.1
With JR, 2015, +13.8
With Love, 2016,+12.0
With Love, 2015, +11.8
With Kyrie, 2015, +11.0
With Kyrie, 2017, +10.2
With Love, 2017, +10.1
POST SEASON
With Joe Smith, 2009, +21.6
With TT, 2016, +17.8
With Andy V, 2009, +16.5
With Big Z, 2010, +15.9
With Love, 2016, +14.6
With Andy V, 2007, +14.6
With Wade, 2012, +13.6
With Rashard, 2014, +13.6
With JR, 2016, +13.0
With Love, 2017, +13.0
With Jefferson, 2016, +12.8
With Korver, 2017, +12.6
With West, 2009, +12.5
With Kyrie, 2016, +12.4
With Kyrie, 2017, +12.3
With TT, 2017; +12.2
With Mo, 2009,+12.1
With Allen, 2013, +12.1
With Battier, 2012, +11.6
With JR, 2017, +11.5
With Haslem, 2012, +11.2
With Bosh, 2012, +10.4
With Chalmers, +2012, +10.0
With Boobie, 2008, +9.9
The players above: if they develop to the fullest extent playing away from LeBron or in some other system and do they then use their new skill set to put up those winning numbers?
IF my goal is to win, I want the best route possible. If that means developing players, I do that. If it’s LeBron Ball, I do that. If a mixture works, then I do that. I wrote a bit about the here: All Things LeBron Thread In that linked post, you see that the Cavs had a top 5 three year playoff stretch of ALL TIME. I think they went the right route. Would helping players find their own games and then giving them the ball lead to that?
I think what people want to argue is this: If LeBron would let others play their games, they could develop into something rather than be just a part of “LeBron Ball.” If he allows them to do that, they can be better and then help him win. THe other is, “Do they perform well playing when playing with him.” We can look at both of these. I think the crux of it is this: If these players were put in another system, would they be better players? Maybe, but would they be GOOD ENOUGH to warrant NOT playing LeBron Ball? In my opinion, there’s a 99.9% chance they would NOT create the best playoff offense ever and a top 5 three year playoff stretch in NBA history and therefore, logically, I would want to run LeBron Ball and maximize my chances of winning. Sure, players may not like this, but statistically, it’s your best chance of winning.
Now, people might argue: Why not both? Maybe they have a point.But to create those offenses that the Cavs did, to me, given the pieces they had and the ages they had, it had to be a constant dose of LeBron Ball. It’s hard to imagine a case in which it’s diluted LeBron Ball mixed with a another system. Watch those 2016 to 2017 playoffs games (and against Toronto this year); everyone runs the plays and actions to get to their spots off of LeBron’s actions and it’s based on timing and repetition and frankly, LeBron’s genius. People think that you can just have LeBron break down defenses and find those players. Sometimes that’s true, but take a look at the screens TT set for Kyrie and Love, and how Kyrie would screen for LeBron and LeBron for Kyrie. That 1/4 pick and role was so good with the three around them setting picks and moving to spots where they’re hit with a perfect pass and able to shoot. Watch those games—it’s actually really beautiful basketball.
1. First stint with the Cavs: Which players would people have given the ball to and have them develop? I can’t think of a single one. IF you have LeBron on your team, and he is able to generate all time offense, then the opportunity cost of giving someone else the ball to create is steep and will cost you games. Otherwise, if you don’t think any player is worthy of developing whom you think will help you win by having the ball in his hands, have him play his role and win games. That player will NEVER be a key cog but rather a role player, so MAXIMiZE his role player abilities. Isn’t that making him better? Yeah, maybe he’s not individually better, but by maximizing his role, he’s maximizing his contribution to winning MORE than he would by developing all,around because he would not develop enough to warrant getting the ball in his hands.
Now, let’s say you’re willing to lose some games and hope the players develop and you reap the benefits down the road. Fine. What are the odds that those players will develop enough to justify not playing LeBron Ball that generates an all time offense? IF I’m going to take the ball out of his hands and want someone else to create, then THAT offense better be as good as LeBron Ball. If it’s not, then what am I doing? I wrote a bit about this in a previous post.
I’ll talk about Kyrie later who was a special offensive talent and he WAS given the ball and he didn’t produce the offense that LeBron did until 2017 and only when shooting out of ISO which is a bizarre statistic unto itself. But yes, when we found someone like Kyrie, he WAS given the ball.
The first stint Cavs won 66 and 61 games in 2009 and 2010 with SRSs at 8.68 and 6.21, respectively. Those are literally the two best consecutive seasons in aggregate for non title winning teams ever with an argument from about three or four other teams, all of which had multiple hall of fame players. Now, is it possible that we could have taken players on those teams (or from 2004 to 2008), have them develop and we’d be just as good or even comparable? If not, then have those players play their roles; when they did, LeBron made them “ better” becuse through their roles, we won 127 games; if they were outside of the system of LeBron Ball and were “developed,” it’s highly unlikely they do anything of note.
As far as playing their roles, Mo Williams had his three best offensive seasons in Cleveland. His TS% and ORatings plummet without LeBron. He played at an all- star scoring level with LeBron and played like shit at all other times. Boobie peaked into a 61% TS Player in 2010.
The other players—some of them had their best moments with LeBron and others didn’t, but none of them were players of note outside of playing with LeBron. Those were the same players LeBron, through playing LeBron Ball, have back to back seasons that put them at the top of the list of teams that didn’t win the title. If they didn’t play LeBron Ball, would they accomplish more? I don’t think anyone thinks so.
Switch Mo or Boobie with Klay Thompson and I see two titles in 2009/2010 with decent chance we beat juggernaut Boston in 2008 (it was a one possession game with one minute left in game 7–Klay is literally better than everyone else on that Cavs’ roster). LeBron never leaves the first time.
2. In Miami, both Wade and Bron played best with the ball in their hands and Wade couldn’t shoot. They obviously needed a system and they decided to give the keys to LeBron and that led them to their most efficient offense ever and, until the Warriors, the highest TS% as a team and offense minus offensive rebounds in NBA history. Wade still had two of his three highest TS% years with LeBron. Obviously his usage and stats related to usage would go down and he began his decline right after 2011. Two of Bosh’s three highest TS% years were with LeBron. Obviously his other stats went down as there’s only one ball, but having Bosh as a #1 option ISNT good enough to win a title. He improved as a shooter and as a pick and roll defender with James.
3. Back in Cleveland. Kyrie is a special offensive talent so he WAS given an opportunity to develop. He had the ball in his hands as much as LeBron did (I wrote a little about that yesterday All Things LeBron Thread )
As for Love, his defense has improved and he’s a better shooter. He can’t be a #1 option and play in the post because if that’s a team’s first option, it’s not going anywhere. I have written many times about how Love’s production hasn’t gone down at all in Cleveland commensurate with going from a #1 option to #2 or #3. Everything Cavs Thread: Cabs or Cavs? Making it Rain with a pastor, BleacherRepcrt, & wine hats
The opportunity cost of letting Love play like he did in Minny takes away from the juggernaut offense you want to create. Also, the Love/LeBron pairing from 2017 had a higher +/- than any Shaq/Kobe pairing ever did.
Now for this year not helping Lebron’s cause, who would anyone like to see with the ball in his hands? The new players didn’t have a chance to acclimatize, and then froze up in the playoffs. Clarkson actually had his BEST stretch shooting while playing with LeBron in the regular season. JR and Shump and Delly and Mozgov and Korver and Frye and Green had some of their best stretches of their careers with Lebron. Green had the best year of his career by far.
Additionally, LeBron had 100% of his team’s playoffs VORP this year. I posted about it here: LeBron James
You can accrue VORP in many ways (rebounding, defense, etc). Our players did NONE OF THOSE THINGS. I wouldn’t develop ANY of these players we have other than Cedi. He should have had a chance to initiate some plays throughout the year. As for the rest of them, DO YOUR JOB AND PLAY YOUR ROLE BECAUSE YOU ARENT GOOD ENOUGH TO WARRANT GETTING THE BALL IN YOUR HANDS. We gave it to Clarkson and he literally had the worst playoffs in NBA history. Clarkson was decent in the regular season and a good spot up shooter with us. He froze in the playoffs. That wasn’t LeBron making him worse.
LeBron’s teammates didn’t perform even though he made their jobs easy for them. You have two options: they are given the opportunity to develop and create and lead OR LeBron does. Do you think any of the players on this team should have been given the opportunity to lead and hope to win playoff games?
If they were given more opportunities to create, we lose in round 1, 4-1.
Ok, so then LeBron can make your life easy and you can make open shots. Nobody else is going to create them. Just make your shots, defend, rebound, and you have a chance, and they didn’t even do that.
Love missed open layups that LeBron created. The team shot 36.6% on spot up opportunities after being #1 or #2 in spot up shooting for four straight regular seasons. They defended like shit and basically didn’t do anything. Not sure what more LeBron could have done. I highly doubt that if these players over all these had more time to “develop”or had the ball more test the would do anything that helped the Cavs win titles.
priceFTW
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Just wasn’t true.
About LeBron holding the ball: In 2017, LeBron averaged 4.36 seconds per touch, 80th highest in the league, and 3.26 dribbles per touch, 110th in the league.
2017 Players who held the ball longer per touch:
1. Wall
2. Westbrook
3. Harden
6. Rubio
10. Lillard
22. Conley
25. CP3
36. Kyrie, 5.07 seconds per touch
46. Kyle Lowry
72. Butler
80. LeBron
In 2018?
43. Kyrie, 4.82, under Stevens’ “system” and no LeBron; Kyrie held the ball longer in Cleveland playing with LeBron than he did in Boston this season. Yes, they pass the ball more in Boston, but it wasn’t LeBron taking the ball away from Kyrie in Cleveland.
82. LeBron
2017 Players who dribbled the ball more:
All the usuals and...
36. Kyrie, 4.87 dribbles per touch
84. Steph Curry
110. LeBron
In 2018?
46. Kyrie, 4.47
118. LeBron
Point guards are going to have a higher hold time and dribbles since they bring the ball up court, but so does LeBron. Kyrie held the ball longer than LeBron did, dribbled more than LeBron did, and wound up with a slightly higher usage rate. Knowing this, how can people continue to say “Bron was just holding the ball”?
NOw, as far as players not liking being stand still shooters, if you’re talented at creating like Kyrie was, LeBron gave him the ball to create (more time touching, dribbling the ball and a higher usage). If you’re not, then you shouldn’t be creating becuse you “like it” and “don’t like” being a shooter. Would the Patriots give Brady 18 passes and run the ball 40 times because a RB likes touches? Do the Patriots give a WR get touches because he doesn’t like blocking or being a decoy? No, they try and create the most favorable matchups that will help them efficiently get first downs, control the ball, and score. What people “like” to do and want to do can get fucked in their system. Nobody likes those assholes, but they do what’s most efficient.
What’s the object when an NBA team has the ball? It’s to score and you want to create an offense that scores efficiently. If that means taking players who cannot create efficiently and making them shooters, that’s what you do. If I have LeBron on my team, that’s the offensive system I want because it literally created the best playoffs offense in NBA history in 2017, top 5 in 2016, and the two highest rated ORatings in any playoff series over the last 45 years and 5 of the top 30 offensive series in NBA playoff history.
If you can create an offense that’s better than that some other way, then you do that, but it’s next to impossible. The only reason this team didn’t win 2-4 titles was because of injuries and two generational talents teaming up with an all time shooter and DPOY who can create. It certainly wasn’t due to a “lack of a system”; look at all the teams that DO have a system. How many elite offenses have they created? We’re talking hundreds and hundreds of teams over the last 45 years. They install systems—where’s their elite offense? It’s HARD AS HELL to have an elite offense in the NBA and then continue in the playoffs. The Warriors have the most talent ever and a system and they haven’t been able to create an offense as good as the Cavs have.
Now it’s a possibility about player perceptions, but creating an offense around LeBron was the right choice, just like it is to create one around Brady and Manning calling plays and/or being able to chsnge plays on presnap
The highest points per possession plays in the 2018 and and 2017 NBA seasons, in a league full of talent, have been a Kyrie catch and shoot three and Korver catch and shoot three (top 5 both). I WANT THEM TO TAKE THOSE SHOTS. That aside, there’s plenty of player movement on the Cavs to get open for those threes. Korver, by the way, doesn’t stand around much—he had the highest % of his shots come off running screens in the NBA this year. He sets picks for Love on the wings, for James at the top of the key. They didn’t just stand around.
I think we could have seen more weakside cutting when Bron had the ball and more cuts from Bron himself.
But back to ball movement—the object of ball movement is to get open shots. In the Finals, the Cavs created 14.3 wide open threes per game to GS’s 13.8. GS, who has a system and two generational talents, created slightly fewer wide open three attempts. Golden State created 14 open three attempts per game to the Cavs’ 11. The Cavs actually created more open/wide open two point attempts per game (16 to 15: the Warriors shot 77.8% on theirs, the Cavs 49% on theirs). We just didn’t convert.