General political discussion

[David.]

@David. @Snarly @AnyoneElseWhoHasAProblemWithCivilRights

If you have a problem with me or others organizing movements to fight for our civil rights and the civil rights of others, then just openly say it and stop beating around the bush talking about "unity."

If you have a problem with Blacks, Hispanics, LGBTQ persons, Jews, the disabled and disadvantaged, organizing to form power structures that can aid in preventing their disenfranchisement then just openly say so... Stop beating around the bush talking about "unity."

And if you don't have a problem with it, just don't understand it, aren't really concerned with being educated about it; then politely, please, get out of our way... We're going to continue to fight to get what we're due, and have been due for a long time coming.

Hope that makes the message a bit clearer.

Can't say I didn't see you reframing posters of various races issues with identity politics and the obvious negative impact on racial relations into » we have a problem with civil rights and of course WE ARE the problem.

All due respect, that's gross.

if you're African-American and a conservative; then you are either (1) confused, or (2) stupid.

Is this the unity and civil rights you fight for?

 

[gourimoko]

Can't say I didn't see you reframing posters of various races issues with identity politics and the obvious negative impact on racial relations into » we have a problem with civil rights and of course WE ARE the problem.

All due respect, that's gross.

Actually I never said you were the problem. You're not in power, you have nothing to do with my civil rights. All I said was that if you have a problem with these movements then say so, openly, don't beat around the bush.. And if you don't have a problem with these movements and support the general concept of civil rights but just cannot understand where we're coming from, then fine, just please get out of the way.

As far as being gross, that's kind of how I felt reading the last several pages prior to writing that post while reading yours and Snarly's.

All due respect indeed.

Is this the unity and civil rights you fight for?

Unity with who? Are you referring to yourself? If that's what you mean, then honestly from my understanding of what you think, then the answer is no.

I'm fighting for civil rights for all people, which includes you, whether or not you support me and people like me is your own business - it doesn't affect me. We likely won't have "unity" on that point, but that's far less important than the larger issue at hand.

 

[David.]

Actually I never said you were the problem. You're not in power, you have nothing to do with my civil rights. All I said was that if you have a problem with these movements then say so, openly, don't beat around the bush.. And if you don't have a problem with these movements and support the general concept of civil rights but just cannot understand where we're coming from, then fine, just please get out of the way.

As far as being gross, that's kind of how I felt reading the last several pages prior to writing that post while reading yours and Snarly's.

All due respect indeed.



Unity with who? Are you referring to yourself? If that's what you mean, then honestly from my understanding of what you think, then the answer is no.

I'm fighting for civil rights for all people, which includes you, whether or not you support me and people like me is your own business - it doesn't affect me. We likely won't have "unity" on that point, but that's far less important than the larger issue at hand.

Let me give you my anecdotal story for the day.

My best friend of six years, black dude, sent me 18 voice mails and 20 texts demanding that I admit Donald Trump is a racist.

I asked him to please calm down, if it's this deep let's just not talk about it, but he was past triggered.

He then berated me for having white privilege and responded to my claims of racism against white people in Hilary's campaign and in the mainstream media. He went on to yell at me because his grandmother was lynched, so cry me a river about white people. Then sent message after message of just evil laughter and vitriol against white people and Donald Trump.

I told him I'm sorry that happened to his grandmother, it's obviously horrible.. I hope you don't blame me, I had nothing to do with it and neither did Donald trumps campaign..

I wished he hadn't marginalized racism against white people, or become so heated that he wouldn't even hear what I was saying, I wish he.. basically hadn't justified racism against white people because of his ancestors past. He did. And I was as empathetic as I could be, and he unfriended me from facebook and I don't see him calming down and talking this out with me.

Minimalize anecdote all you want. Call it unity for civil rights with a foundation built on race and gender.

But tapping into hatred and creating hysteria is POISON and I'm sick of this country being incited and outraged. I'm sick of the yelling, everywhere i go. This^ is not a healthy conversation. It's not a healthy America.

I lost my best friend today because I wouldn't call Donald Trump a racist.

I see it in the real world. I see it on TV. I see the same tactics on this board. I'm sick of the poison.

 

[gourimoko]

Let me give you my anecdotal story for the day.

My best friend of six years, black dude, sent me 18 voice mails and 20 texts demanding that I admit Donald Trump is a racist.

I asked him to please calm down, if it's this deep let's just not talk about it, but he was past triggered.

He then berated me for having white privilege and responded to my claims of racism against white people in Hilary's campaign and in the mainstream media. He went on to yell at me because his grandmother was lynched, so cry me a river about white people.

I told him I'm sorry that happened to his grandmother, it's obviously horrible.. I hope you don't blame me, I had nothing to do with it and neither did Donald trumps campaign..

I wished he hadn't marginalized racism against white people, or become so heated that he wouldn't even hear what I was saying, I wish he.. basically hadn't justified racism against white people because of his ancestors past. He did. And I was as empathetic as I could be, and he unfriended me from facebook and I don't see him calming down and talking this out with me.

Doesn't sound like any kind of best friend I've ever had...

Sounds like you need better friends... I'm not joking either, that's somewhat outrageous.

But, again, you're playing right into this White guilt/White resentment role of essentially bearing the burden of Civil Rights movements as though they are opposing you, DaveK, an accounting student who is just getting by and living life rather than the powers that be.

You continue to put yourself in this position of implied power and responsibility that is a target of these movements... I'm not sure why?

No movement with a focus on civil rights opposes you, Dave. By definition, pursuing equal rights should benefit you just as much as it benefits all of us.

Minimalize anecdote all you want.

Indeed.

Call ur unity for civil rights.

You mean like intersectionality?

Like, the reason I march with LGBTQ people, or the reason I'll go protest at LAX for immigrants? Or the reason I'll stand up for the elderly, disabled, atheists, Jews, Asians, or ..yes.. Whites?

Unity through the concept of equality, and that equality begets freedom.. Not unity by way of appealing to intolerance and the intolerant.

But tapping into hatred and creating hysteria is POISON and I'm sick of this country being incited and outraged. I'm sick of the yelling, everywhere i go.

I cannot argue a strawman, Dave. Your anecdote creates a framework for which I can't really present any argument that's not a non-sequitur for the points we've discussed. Your "friend" was wrong... Not sure how I'm aligned with him, or how he speaks for a movement.

You seem to be saying you're triggered. But by what? People crying out for freedom and equality?

I lost my best friend today because I wouldn't call Donald Trump a racist.

Donald Trump is a racist; but if he was your best friend that shouldn't have happened regardless.

But again, I cannot work within this context.. I don't know anything about the two of you.

I see it in the real world. I see it on TV. I see the same tactics on this board. I'm sick of the poison.

I'm specifically talking about civil rights movements... I'm not talking about what's on TV, I honestly do not watch TV.. Like, at all. But I don't see what you're talking about, especially not in SoCal.

 

[gourimoko]

@David.

FWIW, I have friends that support and voted for Trump.. guys I knew from Hawaii who were stationed there.

We used to talk politics, and do so far far less these days because they can surmise exactly how I feel about Trump.

We're still friends..

We would never not be friends because of Donald Trump...

Although we might NOT be friends if these folks revealed ideals that I could not support... i.e., if they avowed openly racist, bigoted or homophobic beliefs.. yea, I honestly couldn't be friends with someone like that.

But I have to believe they support Trump due to an ... invincible ignorance .. to put this into a Catholic context, lol, that is very difficult to penetrate. And just like the reference from the Catechism, I don't fault them for their ideological box; so long as that doesn't entail hate.

They voted the (R) and tuned out everything else....

I can only hope that time and reality will eventually demonstrate to them what was pretty apparent to me.

 

[Cavsfan1985]

@David.

I can only hope that time and reality will eventually demonstrate to them what was pretty apparent to me.

Why would your not hope that you were wrong? Would it be so bad if Trump turned out to be an average to good president?

 

[cavman]

Why would your not hope that you were wrong? Would it be so bad if Trump turned out to be an average to good president?

Good president for who? I hope he is a good president, but my view of a good president might be different than yours. Many of us just don't see the good in removing hardworking doctors and students from this country that have made a life here just because they happen to be born on some list.

So now we are thinking what else can this guy do? I hope I'm wrong, because I don't see a good president coming from this administration.

 

[Cavsfan1985]

Good president for who? I hope he is a good president, but my view of a good president might be different than yours. Many of us just don't see the good in removing hardworking doctors and students from this country that have made a life here just because they happen to be born on some list.

So now we are thinking what else can this guy do? I hope I'm wrong, because I don't see a good president coming from this administration.

My point is why root against the guy and hope he fails. Your right he is not going to be perfect for everyone. I just hope at the end of 4 years the country is in better shape then he left it. Social issues aside as this is so hard to judge as everyone has there own view. But a good economy, good jobs, and less people in poverty.

 

[cavman]

My point is why root against the guy and hope he fails. Your right he is not going to be perfect for everyone. I just hope at the end of 4 years the country is in better shape then he left it. Social issues aside as this is so hard to judge as everyone has there own view. But a good economy, good jobs, and less people in poverty.

I'm positive you have your people that just hope he fails at everything. We have those kind of people on both sides. Really though people like myself are rooting for these crazy policies to fail and a more level headed president to emerge. I am in no way qualified to comment on what we should do on foreign policy and banning of people entering the USA, but even I can see this ban was poorly thought out and a black mark on his presidency.

We still have the wall, and the repeal of the ACA to worry about. Will he handle those like he did with the Muslim ban?

I do hope in 4 years we are better off as a nation. I hope healthcare is affordable for people, it's not right now so something needs to be done. I hope the country is flush with high paying jobs. I hope the 29 hour work week is no more. I hope gays can still marry and it's not moved back to the states. I hope we can not debate about who pees in what bathroom. Most of all I hope in 4 years we start to work together again.

 

[Cavsfan1985]

I'm positive you have your people that just hope he fails at everything. We have those kind of people on both sides. Really though people like myself are rooting for these crazy policies to fail and a more level headed president to emerge. I am in no way qualified to comment on what we should do on foreign policy and banning of people entering the USA, but even I can see this ban was poorly thought out and a black mark on his presidency.

We still have the wall, and the repeal of the ACA to worry about. Will he handle those like he did with the Muslim ban?

I do hope in 4 years we are better off as a nation. I hope healthcare is affordable for people, it's not right now so something needs to be done. I hope the country is flush with high paying jobs. I hope the 29 hour work week is no more. I hope gays can still marry and it's not moved back to the states. I hope we can not debate about who pees in what bathroom. Most of all I hope in 4 years we start to work together again.

I agree 100%. This is the part that gets lost in a lot of these debates and threads. I think most Americans want 70-80% of the same thing, we just seem to get caught up in the other bull shit and let that define us or our view. At the end of the day, I want my family, friends, and all other Americas to have a better life then they do today. One of my goals as a parent is to give my kids a better life then I had and allow them to do that for their kids.

 

[Tlyons]

To be fair, there was a lot of shit in the post gour responded to that made me say wtf. I appreciated every word as there was a lot wrong with that post.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I agree 100%. This is the part that gets lost in a lot of these debates and threads. I think most Americans want 70-80% of the same thing, we just seem to get caught up in the other bull shit and let that define us or our view.

That other 20-30% isn't necessary B.S., though. Sometimes, it is extremely important.

At the end of the day, I want my family, friends, and all other Americas to have a better life then they do today. One of my goals as a parent is to give my kids a better life then I had and allow them to do that for their kids.

The problem is that is incredibly vague, and a great many of us have very different views as to what a "better life" actually means. Just for starters, you have a fairly fundamental divide between people who want the government to basically leave them alone, and those who want the government to do more for them. That's not a minor distinction that can just be glossed over with the generality that we all want our kids to have "a better life".

 

[gourimoko]

Why would your not hope that you were wrong? Would it be so bad if Trump turned out to be an average to good president?

Not sure what you mean?

He's already doing awful things...

How could Trump be a good President? Implementing a Muslim registry, rolling back women's and LGBT rights? Nationwide stop and frisk? These are policies that would have me calling for his impeachment...

These are all policies that violate a person's civil and human rights let alone their dignity... Yet some folks support them nonetheless... I'm not one of those people.

 

[Cavsfan1985]

Not sure what you mean?

He's already doing awful things...

How could Trump be a good President? Implementing a Muslim registry, rolling back women's and LGBT rights? Nationwide stop and frisk? These are policies that would have me calling for his impeachment...

These are all policies that violate a person's civil and human rights let alone their dignity... Yet some folks support them nonetheless... I'm not one of those people.

Yeah so that means you would not think he is a good president I get that. I personally don't see all of those things happening. If he does not do those, grows the economy where would you stand? The point I was trying to make, is why hope he does those so you can prove to your friends you were right. Why not hope he does not do those things and be wrong?

 

[BooyaCS]

Yeah so that means you would not think he is a good president I get that. I personally don't see all of those things happening. If he does not do those, grows the economy where would you stand? The point I was trying to make, is why hope he does those so you can prove to your friends you were right. Why not hope he does not do those things and be wrong?

I hope I am wrong and that Trump would be a good president. Otherwise the US suffers as a whole. The problem is I think he has too many zealots in his cabinet and in his ear that he will cut off his nose to spite his face.