John Hollinger's Cavaliers playoff post mortem

[kookoo]

At his salary he was a negative overall value. Zero chance we could have traded him and brought back a better player.

My point was if we got rid of him, why the hell didn't we replace him. JBB clearly didn't trust Diakite. All the people arguing Dikite had a limit of games he could play in the NBA early in the season after having a few performances here and there which showed he had what it took to be a role player with time.

It's just stupid to me. We got BODIED on the glass. We have two non-shooting centers who couldn't grab a fucking defensive rebound to save their lives against Tristan Thompson 2.0. We don't have a PF if Dean isn't trusted. We barely have a small forward in Cedi. So our core roster construct is two centers and then 63 guards. But Koby didn't think we needed ANYONE to support the bigs, even though I'm pretty sure we had a bunch of injuries during the trade deadline as well. I don't think either Koby or JBB know what they're doing. Koby is slightly better, but the lack of ambition to even attempt anything outside of the corpse of Danny Green was laughable and it makes me question the intelligence of all the people in the organization. They seem happy with minimal progress.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

My point was if we got rid of him, why the hell didn't we replace him. JBB clearly didn't trust Diakite. All the people arguing Dikite had a limit of games he could play in the NBA early in the season after having a few performances here and there which showed he had what it took to be a role player with time.

Because there wasn't anyone reasonably available who could replace him. Actually, we're really not talking about replacing, but being better than Love. Because if that player isn't better than Love, the right move was to just keep Love himself.

Which is what we should have done.

 

[CavsKermit]

I mentioned this in the first reply of this thread...but do you think Koby will actually go into the tax this upcoming season? We don’t have any indication that he will. If he doesn’t, the point is moot.

How much do people think any team is prepared to pay LeVert? I mean the Cavs weren't getting good offers on him on his current salary as an expiring contract. The only way we can get into the tax under the existing rules would be for LeVert's next contract to be bigger than his cap hold.

Unless we cut Cedi and let LeVert walk, we're an over the cap team. We have no cap space. We have the MLE and the BAE. That's it and it's not enough to put us into the tax.

 

[kookoo]

Because there wasn't anyone reasonably available who could replace him. Actually, we're really not talking about replacing, but being better than Love. Because if that player isn't better than Love, the right move was to just keep Love himself.

Which is what we should have done.

Dedmond and Noel... I think either of them would have come in and contribute. It's not even about being better than Love. It's literally just having some size so if either of our centers got hurt or were in foul trouble (I'm not going to call Mobley a power forward anymore unless he gets a jumper), we'd have a backup. And TBH I think Dedmond would be able to do a solid job bodying Robinson. Robin Lopez should not be on a roster, let alone this one. Let him get into coaching or something...

Also Ross or Johnson should have been looked at. The point is you can't just throw away a player who was meant to have an important role in your rotation after lost his jumper after an injury and not bring someone in. Or use players in that role. Coaching went ham in the regular season trying to win games to the point he barely gave any opportunity to g-leaguers to develop. Was it worth it?

 

[CleveRocks]

Defense doesn't matter like it did in the 90s and early 2000s.

I don't really think our defense is that good, or built that good for the playoffs. Our defense is so strong, because of our interior.

Outside that, defending the perimeter, its very weak. And the NBA has evolved there anyways. So who really gives a shit about us having the best interior defense in basketball? When your perimeter defense is very suspect and easy to attack.

Guys are undersized and out of position. Our backcourt defensively is weak in isolation. Our best perimeter defender plays out of position, and barely played in the series.

Then you take into account how terrible we are offensively. You can attack us defensively. You can really slow us down on offense.

And the coach is terrible. Pretty easy to see why we got beat down by an average playoff team.

Defense is critical in the playoffs. Look at the Philly,Boston game. Where the Celtics separated they were choking off Philly. Look at the scoring graph.. Philly goes flat while Boston continues at the same rate..

We played defense well enough to win, but we did not have the offense to match.. I still think our guards tend to pull within themselves when the going gets tough. You watch Jokic, he makes a lot of inside assists to players in traffic inside. It's just the timing and location of the pass, enables the recipient to get off a clean shot before the defense can react.. our guys want to pass to wide open bigs. Jokic is just seeing the advantage at another level.. perhaps because he IS a big, he knows what an easy shot looks like under the basket.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Defense is critical in the playoffs. Look at the Philly,Boston game. Where the Celtics separated they were choking off Philly. Look at the scoring graph.. Philly goes flat while Boston continues at the same rate..

We played defense well enough to win, but we did not have the offense to match.. I still think our guards tend to pull within themselves when the going gets tough. You watch Jokic, he makes a lot of inside assists to players in traffic inside. It's just the timing and location of the pass, enables the recipient to get off a clean shot before the defense can react.. our guys want to pass to wide open bigs. Jokic is just seeing the advantage at another level.. perhaps because he IS a big, he knows what an easy shot looks like under the basket.

His physical size/length also enables him to make passes from angles that short players cannot.

But it's still amazing that a big gets as many of his assists with interior and entry passes as opposed to the easier inside/out passes common to most "good passing" bigs.

 

[Dr No]

INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT, NO SWEEPING CHANGES. My question is - how long is this runway? Two more years? Three?

I think the answer has to be 1. The team was still very young this year and the assumption is that Garland, Mobley and Okoro are not anywhere near finished products yet. We also have a year of contract stability that allows us to watch things develop for a season. If we can pick up LeVert or a similar replacement at a reasonable price, I think we are wise to essentially run it back another year while looking for ways to improve around the margins (Cedi, Wade, Rubio, Okoro and the rest are all potential trade pieces). Next year is the year of major decisions. Obviously, if a great deal presents itself, you take it, but we are not in the "we have to make some moves to win now" panic mode. It likely means another season of not being "good not great". But, if a championship is the goal, I think this is the right way to go about it.

 

[Don-no-vann!]

I didn't read much of the thread after the first page, but Hollinger and no one I read mentioned pace. The Cavs were deliberate on offense and that might've been another reason for the low scoring. From what I've seen both Mobley and Allen can run the floor better than most bigs. They are not bulky but lithe and mobile. Perhaps a faster pace and more running can solve some of their issues. Neither Allen or Mobley are very strong which is why they gave up so many offensive rebounds. This is where Love would've been a big help.

 

[MirORich]

INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT, NO SWEEPING CHANGES. My question is - how long is this runway? Two more years? Three?

With regards specifically to the coach and not the key players, I think there is debate about what runway means and what these “years” signify.

If the Cavs take a step back next year or lose again in the first round, that should be it. Change the coach.

But where it gets tricky is this. If the team wins in the first round and then loses in 6 in round two, we here will mostly say “that’s it, need to get rid of him and bring in someone who can finish this”

But internally, they very may well look at that as natural progression and improvement, to win a playoff series and then play a competitive second round.

And they would likely then postulate and present publicly that they expect the following year to contain yet another natural progression(ECF)

To them it might feel all very reasonable and in line with many historical ascents of young growing teams who eventually reached Conference Finals and NBA Finals.

So prepare yourself for that. And take time to decide if your active position is:

1. I want whatever is necessary for the Cavs brass/ownership to fire JBB to happen, even losing again in the first round

2. I accept whatever happens and root for them no matter what, even if making it two the second round sets up the continued coaching of JBB

 

[cavsfever]

I think the answer has to be 1. The team was still very young this year and the assumption is that Garland, Mobley and Okoro are not anywhere near finished products yet. We also have a year of contract stability that allows us to watch things develop for a season. If we can pick up LeVert or a similar replacement at a reasonable price, I think we are wise to essentially run it back another year while looking for ways to improve around the margins (Cedi, Wade, Rubio, Okoro and the rest are all potential trade pieces). Next year is the year of major decisions. Obviously, if a great deal presents itself, you take it, but we are not in the "we have to make some moves to win now" panic mode. It likely means another season of not being "good not great". But, if a championship is the goal, I think this is the right way to go about it.

Ummm, why aren’t we in panic mode next year? I think we’ve got to be in at least heightened urgency mode. People like you implying that we have all the time in the world truly mystify me. Mitchell can walk in June 2025. We cannot afford to lose him for nothing given all we traded for him. So when do we start to panic if the team isn’t performing well enough to keep him around?

 

[godfather]

Because there wasn't anyone reasonably available who could replace him. Actually, we're really not talking about replacing, but being better than Love. Because if that player isn't better than Love, the right move was to just keep Love himself.

Which is what we should have done.

The player to replace him was the one they traded. He was a young Kevin Love, but athletic.

 

[godfather]

Defense is critical in the playoffs. Look at the Philly,Boston game. Where the Celtics separated they were choking off Philly. Look at the scoring graph.. Philly goes flat while Boston continues at the same rate..

We played defense well enough to win, but we did not have the offense to match.. I still think our guards tend to pull within themselves when the going gets tough. You watch Jokic, he makes a lot of inside assists to players in traffic inside. It's just the timing and location of the pass, enables the recipient to get off a clean shot before the defense can react.. our guys want to pass to wide open bigs. Jokic is just seeing the advantage at another level.. perhaps because he IS a big, he knows what an easy shot looks like under the basket.

Didn't say defense doesn't matter at all.

In the 90s and 2000s, you can have dreadful offenses, and still win, if your defense is elite.

You can't get away with it today, because the game has changed, the rules have changes. And offenses are tougher to defend against, because of the spacing, the shooting.

Old days you'd have two post guys down on the block, the pace would be slower, and teams weren't shooting threes at a high rate.

Offense has evolved a lot. Boston isn't just a really good defensive team, they are ranked number 2 in offense.

Offenses like ours and Memphis won't get it done today.

 

[Dr No]

Ummm, why aren’t we in panic mode next year? I think we’ve got to be in at least heightened urgency mode. People like you implying that we have all the time in the world truly mystify me. Mitchell can walk in June 2025. We cannot afford to lose him for nothing given all we traded for him. So when do we start to panic if the team isn’t performing well enough to keep him around?

I think the answer is in your comment. He can walk in June of 25. The offseason of 24 is when we have to commit to the core of a team that we believe can win it all. If we are sitting here a year from now without significant enough improvement to look like real contenders in the next year or two, then you have to end the “let them develop and see how good they really are phase” and make the moves necessary to go for it all. We have 1 more year of organic growth/development with our young core. After that, it’s win now.

 

[godfather]

I don't think Mitchell will just walk. If he wants out, I believe he'll tell the franchise and request a trade before his contract expires.

So we can still get something for him.

There's more to be done now of days, for players to request a trade. So they can, one, get their money, and two, pick their destination.

He told the Jazz he wanted to be traded. I believe he'll do the same.

We basically got one more year to figure it out, show we are heading in the right direction. If not, he's gone.

I think he'll request a trade, so he doesn't just screw us. Mitchell seems like a good dude. Then again, maybe he'll just screw us and leave. We've had that hand too.

 

[cavsfever]

I think the answer is in your comment. He can walk in June of 25. The offseason of 24 is when we have to commit to the core of a team that we believe can win it all. If we are sitting here a year from now without significant enough improvement to look like real contenders in the next year or two, then you have to end the “let them develop and see how good they really are phase” and make the moves necessary to go for it all. We have 1 more year of organic growth/development with our young core. After that, it’s win now.

We aren’t going to get a team that can win it all in 24-25 if we can’t win at least a playoff series in 23-24. By 24-25 we will be in true desperation mode and under heavy pressure to trade Mitchell is if he doesn’t accept an extension. Next year is the key year.