John Hollinger's Cavaliers playoff post mortem

[dice1717]

Bucks fire Bud and we can’t get rid of our clown? Come on

 

[2 For The Brew]

The offseason of 24 is when we have to commit to the core of a team that we believe can win it all.

This is not realistic.

Since the 1979-80 season here are all but one of the NBA Champions:

Magic
Bird
Dr J /Moses
Isiah
MJ
Hakeem
Duncan
Shaq
Garnett
Kobe
Dirk
LeBron
Curry
Kawhi
Giannis

The exception is the Sheed / Billups Pistons.

Donovan Mitchell is a very good player but he’s not on THAT level. Neither is anyone else on our roster.

I think having expectations of a ring is not realistic unless you have someone on your roster worthy of that list above. Absent that getting to a Conference Final is a really nice achievement. I think that’s a realistic goal unless and until we either develop a guy to the stratosphere or draft one.

The idea that we could have passed on the Mitchell deal and got something later that would be better is plausible but not likely. He’s an all star starter and we haven’t had many of those. He’s likely to be first team all NBA. Yes, if we held onto our #1 draft picks maybe we get very lucky in the draft or maybe we make a deal for a killer 3 & D but there are 29 other teams looking for that guy.

We had a really good team with Daugherty - Nance - Price - Harper - Williams with Ehlo and a coupe bench pieces but we didn’t have Isiah, MJ or Hakeem (or any luck with injuries to be fair). Philly might not even make the ECF again this season and they have the MVP. Nobody is too confident the Joker will win a ring either.

It’s damn difficult to get that far. Without “THAT GUY” it’s a long shot and those types of players are rarely available, especially for Cleveland.

Or we can just say Koby is an idiot.

 

[inliner311]

I didn't read much of the thread after the first page, but Hollinger and no one I read mentioned pace. The Cavs were deliberate on offense and that might've been another reason for the low scoring. From what I've seen both Mobley and Allen can run the floor better than most bigs. They are not bulky but lithe and mobile. Perhaps a faster pace and more running can solve some of their issues. Neither Allen or Mobley are very strong which is why they gave up so many offensive rebounds. This is where Love would've been a big help.

The problem with trying to up the pace is you need depth to do so. You can't have a handful of players playing big minutes and also expect them to play at a high place. If we had more guard depth and more big depth then we might be able to up the pace. Otherwise we will just run our own guys into the ground.

Also Garland doesn't like a higher pace so good luck trying to up it when your PG basically likes to operate at a slower pace.

 

[Dr No]

We aren’t going to get a team that can win it all in 24-25 if we can’t win at least a playoff series in 23-24. By 24-25 we will be in true desperation mode and under heavy pressure to trade Mitchell is if he doesn’t accept an extension. Next year is the key year.

I think we are thinking along the same lines. I’m not saying we can win it all in 24-25, but by the time that season rolls around we will have been forced by Mitchell’s contract to decide. Where we stand at this time next year is the key to how major our roster/coaching changes have to be.

 

[Dr No]

This is not realistic.

Since the 1979-80 season here are all but one of the NBA Champions:

Magic
Bird
Dr J /Moses
Isiah
MJ
Hakeem
Duncan
Shaq
Garnett
Kobe
Dirk
LeBron
Curry
Kawhi
Giannis

The exception is the Sheed / Billups Pistons.

Donovan Mitchell is a very good player but he’s not on THAT level. Neither is anyone else on our roster.

I think having expectations of a ring is not realistic unless you have someone on your roster worthy of that list above. Absent that getting to a Conference Final is a really nice achievement. I think that’s a realistic goal unless and until we either develop a guy to the stratosphere or draft one.

The idea that we could have passed on the Mitchell deal and got something later that would be better is plausible but not likely. He’s an all star starter and we haven’t had many of those. He’s likely to be first team all NBA. Yes, if we held onto our #1 draft picks maybe we get very lucky in the draft or maybe we make a deal for a killer 3 & D but there are 29 other teams looking for that guy.

We had a really good team with Daugherty - Nance - Price - Harper - Williams with Ehlo and a coupe bench pieces but we didn’t have Isiah, MJ or Hakeem (or any luck with injuries to be fair). Philly might not even make the ECF again this season and they have the MVP. Nobody is too confident the Joker will win a ring either.

It’s damn difficult to get that far. Without “THAT GUY” it’s a long shot and those types of players are rarely available, especially for Cleveland.

Or we can just say Koby is an idiot.

I’m not saying we will or could actually win it all. But because of Mitchell’s contract we will be deciding if we are riding with basically what we have or retooling because we don’t think it’s good enough. My original point was we have one more season to see how far the young core develops. After that, Mitchell’s contract will force us to make hard decisions

 

[HammerGold]

I don't think Mitchell will just walk. If he wants out, I believe he'll tell the franchise and request a trade before his contract expires.

So we can still get something for him.

There's more to be done now of days, for players to request a trade. So they can, one, get their money, and two, pick their destination.

He told the Jazz he wanted to be traded. I believe he'll do the same.

We basically got one more year to figure it out, show we are heading in the right direction. If not, he's gone.

I think he'll request a trade, so he doesn't just screw us. Mitchell seems like a good dude. Then again, maybe he'll just screw us and leave. We've had that hand too.

No because trading Mitchell next year would probably net us pennies on the dollar in trade value.

 

[CleveRocks]

Didn't say defense doesn't matter at all.

In the 90s and 2000s, you can have dreadful offenses, and still win, if your defense is elite.

You can't get away with it today, because the game has changed, the rules have changes. And offenses are tougher to defend against, because of the spacing, the shooting.

Old days you'd have two post guys down on the block, the pace would be slower, and teams weren't shooting threes at a high rate.

Offense has evolved a lot. Boston isn't just a really good defensive team, they are ranked number 2 in offense.

Offenses like ours and Memphis won't get it done today.

True. But Defense is critical to win in the playoffs. You still need a good offense. But nearly every game article talks about the offensive wonders. Klay's eight triples or Curry's amazing three. And the warriors had 38 assists, which are not mentioned at all. But AD and LeBron were shut down by the Warriors from the second quarter on.. those two are the heart of the Lakers offense, and the warriors ripped it out..

 

[gambler]

No because trading Mitchell next year would probably net us pennies on the dollar in trade value.

with that in mind do you trade mitchell now?

 

[cavsfever]

This is not realistic.

Since the 1979-80 season here are all but one of the NBA Champions:

Magic
Bird
Dr J /Moses
Isiah
MJ
Hakeem
Duncan
Shaq
Garnett
Kobe
Dirk
LeBron
Curry
Kawhi
Giannis

The exception is the Sheed / Billups Pistons.

Donovan Mitchell is a very good player but he’s not on THAT level. Neither is anyone else on our roster.

I think having expectations of a ring is not realistic unless you have someone on your roster worthy of that list above. Absent that getting to a Conference Final is a really nice achievement. I think that’s a realistic goal unless and until we either develop a guy to the stratosphere or draft one.

The idea that we could have passed on the Mitchell deal and got something later that would be better is plausible but not likely. He’s an all star starter and we haven’t had many of those. He’s likely to be first team all NBA. Yes, if we held onto our #1 draft picks maybe we get very lucky in the draft or maybe we make a deal for a killer 3 & D but there are 29 other teams looking for that guy.

We had a really good team with Daugherty - Nance - Price - Harper - Williams with Ehlo and a coupe bench pieces but we didn’t have Isiah, MJ or Hakeem (or any luck with injuries to be fair). Philly might not even make the ECF again this season and they have the MVP. Nobody is too confident the Joker will win a ring either.

It’s damn difficult to get that far. Without “THAT GUY” it’s a long shot and those types of players are rarely available, especially for Cleveland.

Or we can just say Koby is an idiot.

If Donovan Mitchell isn’t THAT guy then why do you trade all your assets for him? Are you just placing a gigantic bet on Mobley becoming an all-world player way before you know if that’s actually going to happen? Because that doesn’t make sense. You wait to see what you have in Mobley first.

I agree Mitchell is a fun player to have but we already had a fun team to watch develop

 

[HammerGold]

with that in mind do you trade mitchell now?

I would because we're keeping JBB and not in win now mode. I think Koby is very delusional not understanding how critical is to show Mitchell we're ready to compete for a title now.

 

[PIP]

made Love

 

[gambler]

I would because we're keeping JBB and not in win now mode. I think Koby is very delusional not understanding how critical is to show Mitchell we're ready to compete for a title now.

agreed.

i think the cavs could get three first round picks for donovan right now. and if mitchell should get badly injured next season then his trade value could be close to zero. it would have to be a sign and trade. you could see the injury angle happening if both levert and rubio get injured.

more minutes....more fatigue....

there really is no reason to continue should the off-season not go well which in all likelihood will be the case.

 

[gambler]

If Donovan Mitchell isn’t THAT guy then why do you trade all your assets for him? Are you just placing a gigantic bet on Mobley becoming an all-world player way before you know if that’s actually going to happen? Because that doesn’t make sense. You wait to see what you have in Mobley first.

I agree Mitchell is a fun player to have but we already had a fun team to watch develop

i agree wiht what you are saying except there is no reason to think in the past tense...the cavs are at where they are at and need to move forward.

whether that be with or without mitchell they will need to decide that after the free agency period ends. signing levert, who i really like, and his suspect ankles to play the next two season at the three at 20mm/year is just a bonehead move.

 

[foucault87]

agreed.

i think the cavs could get three first round picks for donovan right now. and if mitchell should get badly injured next season then his trade value could be close to zero. it would have to be a sign and trade. you could see the injury angle happening if both levert and rubio get injured.

more minutes....more fatigue....

there really is no reason to continue should the off-season not go well which in all likelihood will be the case.

Why are you such a pessimist? I'm hoping these guys to all stay healthy and have awesome seasons for the Cavs next year

 

[CavsKermit]

I think the answer is in your comment. He can walk in June of 25. The offseason of 24 is when we have to commit to the core of a team that we believe can win it all. If we are sitting here a year from now without significant enough improvement to look like real contenders in the next year or two, then you have to end the “let them develop and see how good they really are phase” and make the moves necessary to go for it all. We have 1 more year of organic growth/development with our young core. After that, it’s win now.

A year from now, Mitchell will either extend, or not. If not, he's getting traded. There isn't a debate to be had.