LeBron being LeBron

[InBoobieWeTrust]

Don't you think they were just being polite to the only 2 "senior men" on that team? Kidd barely even played and Kobe had a lousy tournament for the most part where he shamelessly broke the offense and chucked away in most games. LeBron's the only one I consistently heard about being the leader of that team. Not just by commentators and coaches, mind you, but the actual players on that team too.

Considering LeBron himself(and Wade, for that matter) would tell you you're wrong about Kidd and Kobe, and considering the fact that Kidd was only on the team to babysit LeBron and make sure he wasn't too much of a distraction/problem to the program, I'd say no, it wasn't just being polite.

Blah Blah. Either point out my lies or shut up.

The troll begins to show his true colors. Expected nothing less.

 

[MoFlo]

Uhh, no. 88-89 Celtics made the playoffs with Bird playing 6 games. 91-92 Lakers made the playoffs after losing Magic to HIV. 96-97 Magic made the playoffs after losing Shaq to FA. Bulls won 55 games in 93-94 after losing MJ to retirement. LA has a .700+ win % w/o Kobe over the last 14 years. These aren't "mid-season" samples. These are teams without their best player for ENTIRE seasons.



They went 0-6 in 07-08 without LeBron. They certainly weren't resting anybody then. Went 1-5 to close out last season, and I recall Mike Brown going full tilt with his core players in most of those games.



SA was missing Tony Parker. No way Cleveland wins if he was playing.

1st of all, I think you mean 1-4 to close out last season without LeBron. He played in the 6th to last game.

2nd of all, in those 4 losses:

-Jamison played in 3 games & averaged 25.7 MPG
-Mo played in 2 games & averaged 31.5 MPG

As far as the '07-'08 season goes:

-In all 6 of those games, we were without Andy.
-In 4 of those games, we were also without Larry Hughes.

Oh, and we were also without Shaq & Antawn left the game early with an injury in that San Antonio game last season...

 

[Jon]

You know better then that. The Cavs didn't just lose LeBron. The also lost Shaq, Z, and Delonte. They turned over most of their coaching staff which includes the head coach. They are installing a new system. Plus, the loss of Ferry and others from management. There has been too many changes to try to sell some nonsensical agenda based rhetoric.

There is no way to have any real validity to your statement with all that has happened. And, to do any real justice to determining if the support was any good. You'd have to actually replace LeBron's spot in the order with another max contract type player to see how well they do. To see if it was just Lebron. Or, if others could do nearly as well with the support cast. Of course, that would also test LeBron. But, that is a different matter.

Remember what happened to the Celts when Garnett went down a couple seasons ago. They struggled to even play .500 the rest of the way. Remove the best player on any team and see the results. And, bringing up the Bulls is a strawman. The question was whether the supporting cast was good enough to match up with the Celtcs, Magic, and Lakers. Not the 72 win Chicago Bulls.

I was talking perceptions, not my own opinion. Personally, I don't expect the Cavs to be all that bad even with all the changes you listed, albeit I think 50-wins is a stretch unless we pull off some terrific moves.

That is unless we tank ...

btw, I wouldn't compare a team losing their best player for part of a season .vs. losing him for the entire season. In the later case, there's ample time to try to come up with some ways to deal with his absence. Here's a random example: when Orlando lost Shaq they went from 60-wins to 45-wins. Brian Hill lost his job, though, as the team started off just 24-25. So a new coach in that sort of situation, might not be a bad thing.

btw, while I agree that Z, Shaq, and Delonte all contributed to the Cavs; the bottom line is they are all now playing for minimum contracts. Nobody outside of Cleveland is going to buy that they were great losses that couldn't be replaced - or even re-signed if we actually wanted to retain them, rather than move on.

Again, I'm talking perceptions...

 

[Jon]

Wade was excellent that entire tourney and the people closest to that team will tell you he was their best player in the Olympics. LeBron was good, but Wade was the best player(while coming off the bench) in the tourney, it's what spurred the whole "Wade is back" hype that lead to him having a great 2008-2009 campaign with the Heat.

It's not really even an argument, and it's nothing against LeBron who was very good of his own accord in the tourney, but Wade was excellent.

All of those guys had to accept different roles, so "best player" is very relative. Personally, I was very impressed with how LeBron took over the half court play making for the team in spite of the fact of having so many top PGs on the team.

Kobe took the role of focusing on playing D and stopping the opposing teams best player.

Wade and Melo were supposed to be the finishers and scorers.

Kidd mostly pushed the ball and ran the break.

If the roles were assigned differently, we would have seen different results. It's very hard to judge who was the best in those circumstances.

 

[MJLJ]

Throw out the Kobe Lakers, he's never missed a full season.

Still doesn't negate how spectacular they've been over the years without him. Also doesn't negate their 6-2 record in the 8 games Kobe missed last season. Could've easily been 8-0 too, the 2 losses went down to the final shot. Last season's Cavaliers wouldn't come close to sniffing that type of success if LeBron went down for a few games. We know this for a fact.

As far as the Magic go, they were the 7th seed which isn't an unrealistic destination for this Cavaliers team.

They were the 7th seed DESPITE Penny missing 23 games. I wonder how Cleveland would fare if Jamison missed 23 games next season...do they even win 25?

Already detailed the Bulls' situation.

And like I already said, that's still an easy 50-win team without Kukoc. Remember, Pippen missed 10 games that season. Bulls went 3-7 w/o him.

That Lakers team won a whopping 43 games(and ADDED a guy who was their LEADING SCORER that season in Sedale Thearatt)

He averaged a decent 15 ppg and was the 3rd leading scorer on the team. 1st in total points because LA lost 47 games to injuries to their 2 best players in Worthy and Perkins. Still made the playoffs. Can you imagine what Cleveland's record would be next season if they lost 'Mo and Jamison to 47 games? They wouldn't even win 25 games. Face it, LA making the playoffs w/o Magic in 91-92 was still a terrific accomplishment and something Cleveland could never pull off in a similar situation.

the Celtics team won a whopping 42 games(and added Brian Shaw who had a good rookie season).

Yeah, I'm sure Shaw's 9 ppg on 43% shooting is what propelled them to the playoffs . Mind you, Celtics lost '88 All Star Ainge for half the season in 88-89, so we aren't even looking at an unfair advantage they had over the 87-88 team through Shaw.

Hardly world beaters.

It's about being respectable, something I have total confidence this Cavs team isn't capable of being without LeBron. And we'll find out soon enough.

So the formula for these teams to make the playoffs was simple, they lost their best player and added someone who gave them legitimate production

The only team that added a meaningful piece was LA in Threatt, but considering the fact they lost nearly 50 games to injuries to their 2 best players, I'd say the addition of Threatt and the injuries to Worthy and Perkins end up offsetting each other. They would've still made the playoffs in '92 without Threatt with a healthy Worthy and Perkins.

why are the Cavs bound to the team they have now even though they lost MORE players than those other teams?

Cleveland lost 3 rotation players, yes, but they also gained Jamison for a FULL season, as opposed to 30-odd games. He more than makes up for whatever Cleveland lost in West(who was mostly irrelevant last year). They'll have a healthy Powe, who should AT LEAST be able to provide what Z did off the bench. IMO, he's better than Z. The only true loss will be Shaq, but is it? Let's face it, Cleveland was a better team without Shaq last year, and I'd say that applies to 90% of teams in the league. Shaq hasn't made a positive contribution to a franchise since 06-07.

George Hill was arguably their best overall PG for most of last year

Is this a joke? How is George's 12/3/48% close to Parker's 16/6/49%?

and if Parker were healthy, you can't count on him even matching George Hill's production for that game(23 points and better D than Parker)

Parker's a better player than Hill and 'Mo Williams is every quick PG's dream. I don't see any reason why Parker, who's better than Hill, wouldn't be able to have a better night and lead SA to victory.

 

[MJLJ]

Considering LeBron himself(and Wade, for that matter) would tell you you're wrong about Kidd and Kobe

Uhh, and how exactly do you come to this conclusion? I don't recall either LeBron or Wade calling them the leaders.

and considering the fact that Kidd was only on the team to babysit LeBron and make sure he wasn't too much of a distraction/problem to the program, I'd say no, it wasn't just being polite.

If Kidd's sole purpose was to be LeBron's babysitter, then how does he become the leader of the team? The guy barely even got any playing time. They'd start him out of respect and then quickly sub him for CP3. Kidd was a non-factor in Beijing.

The troll begins to show his true colors. Expected nothing less.

Where are these lies I was supposedly telling? :rofl:. I guess you couldn't find any. Good. Now shut up.

 

[Jon]

MJLJ- I think the Cavs can be pretty decent for all the reasons you spelled out how great teams can still get things done without their best player. We do have to patch things together sufficiently and not lose the things we previously did well (like playing team D), but I really don't think LeBron alone was worth 30 wins.

Anyway, good debate.

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

Uhh, and how exactly do you come to this conclusion? I don't recall either LeBron or Wade calling them the leaders.

The running story for years has been how Kobe's work ethic rubbed off on LeBron and Wade and made them better players because of how hard they saw him work. Is that not a form of leadership?

Talking about how much of a leader you are is one thing, setting an example is another.

As far as everything else goes, I stand by my arguments that I made beforehand and there's not much else to say to your responses except I completely disagree with all of them because of everything I listed beforehand.


Also, the argument is missing a key piece....which won't be obtainable until the Cavs actually play next season. They could pull things together and make the playoffs, or they could just mentally check out and be depressed for most of the year and end up a bottom dweller. Attitude has as much to do with things as talent level, Byron Scott will be put to the test.

 

[Jon]

btw, IBWT is expressing some points that have been made in some not too ancient articles about those Olympic games. I'm not sure he's interpreting them all that well. I think the story was more that there were some reservations bringing LeBron back on the team, and one way of addressing that was bringing in Kidd, but we're talking back in '2006, not '08.

The thing I found interesting, is that in spite of their reservations, they seemed to fear not putting LeBron on the team. The coaches may have had one view of what he brought, but the players obviously saw it differently and respected him as a player and saw him as a leader in as much as they followed his lead about joining the team.

There's a reason that from the get go that Colangelo announced that LeBron & Kobe would be on the team and they wouldn't be competing with anybody for a spot. It's like when people start a new blog our message board the first thing they do is run around trying to get some of the guys they knew from old boards/blogs to sign up. You need to seed with the right people, so the rest will follow.

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

btw, IBWT is expressing some points that have been made in some not too ancient articles about those Olympic games. I'm not sure he's interpreting them all that well. I think the story was more that there were some reservations bringing LeBron back on the team, and one way of addressing that was bringing in Kidd, but we're talking back in '2006, not '08.

The thing I found interesting, is that in spite of their reservations, they seemed to fear not putting LeBron on the team. The coaches may have had one view of what he brought, but the players obviously saw it differently and respected him as a player and saw him as a leader in as much as they followed his lead about joining the team.

There's a reason that from the get go that Colangelo announced that LeBron & Kobe would be on the team and they wouldn't be competing with anybody for a spot. It's like when people start a new blog our message board the first thing they do is run around trying to get some of the guys they knew from old boards/blogs to sign up. You need to seed with the right people, so the rest will follow.

LeBron's immense talent and versatility probably had more to do with that than his leadership. If he truly was "the leader"(I think he was one of them, but not the unquestioned leader in all aspects), it was something that had developed during, but not before the olympics.

 

[MJLJ]

The running story for years has been how Kobe's work ethic rubbed off on LeBron and Wade and made them better players because of how hard they saw him work. Is that not a form of leadership?

Running story by who exactly - Kobe fans?

Also, the argument is missing a key piece....which won't be obtainable until the Cavs actually play next season. They could pull things together and make the playoffs, or they could just mentally check out and be depressed for most of the year and end up a bottom dweller. Attitude has as much to do with things as talent level, Byron Scott will be put to the test.

Again, if this was a championship caliber cast as most fans keep touting them as, then there's no reason why they shouldn't make the playoffs this upcoming season. Every great team makes the playoffs without their star player.

 

[CPK]

Running story by who exactly - Kobe fans?



Again, if this was a championship caliber cast as most fans keep touting them as, then there's no reason why they shouldn't make the playoffs this upcoming season. Every great team makes the playoffs without their star player.

That story was run during the year they played with Kobe for Team USA.

This cast was built for LeBron James and signed off on by LeBron James. It was filled with role players to compliment his skill set; so yes, when you take out that centerpiece the team has to change it's entire gameplan potentially missing the playoffs.

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

Running story by who exactly - Kobe fans?

No, it was a pretty wide-spread and accepted story, nobody credible ever denied it and plenty of credible reporters and writers have written about it or mentioned it.

 

[czvo]

No, it was a pretty wide-spread and accepted story, nobody credible ever denied it and plenty of credible reporters and writers have written about it or mentioned it.

Not to mention we SAW IT PLAY OUT in the gold medal game. With the game close, and time ticking off the clock, who did the players go to to hit the big shot? Kobe.

Now, after that game, I argued for weeks that Kobe didn't really play that well in the tournament offensively. He did break off plays at times, but the fact remains that Kobe was the one that ALL the players looked to at the end of the gold medal game. We can sit here and argue each individual's performance in those games until we are blue in the face, but Kobe was the alpha dog, and that cannot be disputed after what transpired.

 

[futuristxen]

Which is why I think the Heat could really work. I don't know if Kobe and Lebron could get along as well as he and Wade. I think the latter two have shown consistently that they have no problem deferring to the hot hand, and making the right basketball play.

Kobe on the other hand defers to no one, which is a problem because he takes a lot of bad shots especially when the game is close. He hits big shots from time to time for sure. But so do Lebron and Wade, but more than that they both make the right play 9 times out of 10.

Dunno if the Heat will play that many close important games though to be honest. They might get a few in the playoffs, but over a 7 game series the close games probably won't matter in the end.