I’ve posted this before, but:
It’s very difficult to make an objective argument that LeBron
doesn’t make his teammates better as far as winning is concerned (this stint, first stint, Miami). Other than Kyrie, I don’t see a single player on Bron’s teams who should have been developed to lead or given the ball to increase usage. I’ll get to Love and Wade and Bosh below.
Here’s a list of players coming into this season and how they did paired with LeBron at their peaks. Look at the variety in types of players. Maybe playing LeBron Ball didn’t develop them individually (but a player also has to take initiative and develop himself),
but even if they had developed, would doing so and then increased usage lead to winning as much as we did? I don’t think it works to this extent and therefore, he’s maximized these players ability to contribute to winning. The Patriots care about how a player fits in their system. Yes, they want to develop everything, but not at the cost of how that player fits into the system and they’re praised for it becuse it’s all about winning.
Now, the two organizations are different (crazy Dan, crazy LeBron, shit drafting, etc), but the fitting of players into a system (LeBron Ball in the Cavs’ case) to win is the same. The reason people don’t look at us somewhat similarily (besides the craziness) is because we didn’t win titles to create a dynasty and the only reason for that was a perfect storm of bullshit in Golden State that fucked it all up. I wrote about how historically great our three year run was and would have created a dynasty in any other era
Everything Cavs Thread: Cabs or Cavs? Making it Rain with a pastor, BleacherRepcrt, & wine hats
REGULAR SEASON
Point of reference: Kobe/Shaq, +9.1, +10.9, +8.4, +10.1 in ‘01, ‘02, ‘03, ‘04 respectively; KD/Westbrook, +12.8 in 2016, +10.6 in 2015, +7.5 in 2014, +10.8 in 2013, +7.0 in 2012, +2.6 in 2011, +5.8 in 2010
LeBron paired With Shump, 2015, +19.2
With Big Ben, 2009, +18.6
With Andy V, 2010, +18.4
With Delly, 2016, +17.9
With Boobie, 2009, +17.3
With Moon, 2010, +17.3
With West, 2010, +17.0
With Mozgov, 2015, +16.8
With Battier, 2013, +16.1
With Shump, 2016, +15.8
With Big Z, 2010, +15.6
With West, 2009, +15.4
With Mo W, 2009, +15.4
With Big Z, 2009, +15.1
With Chalmers, 2013, +15.1
With Jamison, 2010, +15.1
With Wade, 2013, +14.8
With Birdman, 2013, +14.7
With TT, 2016, +14.6
With Wade, 2012, +14.1
With Boobie, 2010,+14.1
With JR, 2015, +13.8
With Love, 2016,+12.0
With Love, 2015, +11.8
With Kyrie, 2015, +11.0
With Kyrie, 2017, +10.2
With Love, 2017, +10.1
POST SEASON
With Joe Smith, 2009, +21.6
With TT, 2016, +17.8
With Andy V, 2009, +16.5
With Big Z, 2010, +15.9
With Love, 2016, +14.6
With Andy V, 2007, +14.6
With Wade, 2012, +13.6
With Rashard, 2014, +13.6
With JR, 2016, +13.0
With Love, 2017, +13.0
With Jefferson, 2016, +12.8
With Korver, 2017, +12.6
With West, 2009, +12.5
With Kyrie, 2016, +12.4
With Kyrie, 2017, +12.3
With TT, 2017; +12.2
With Mo, 2009,+12.1
With Allen, 2013, +12.1
With Battier, 2012, +11.6
With JR, 2017, +11.5
With Haslem, 2012, +11.2
With Bosh, 2012, +10.4
With Chalmers, +2012, +10.0
With Boobie, 2008, +9.9
The players above: if they develop to the fullest extent playing away from LeBron or in some other system and do they then use their new skill set to put up those winning numbers?
IF my goal is to win, I want the best route possible. If that means developing players, I do that. If it’s LeBron Ball, I do that. If a mixture works, then I do that. I wrote a bit about the here:
All Things LeBron Thread In that linked post,
you see that the Cavs had a top 5 three year playoff stretch of ALL TIME. I think they went the right route. Would helping players find their own games and then giving them the ball lead to that?
I think what people want to argue is this:
If LeBron would let others play their games, they could develop into something rather than be just a part of “LeBron Ball.” If he allows them to do that, they can be better and then help him win. THe other is, “Do they perform well playing when playing with him.” We can look at both of these.
I think the crux of it is this: If these players were put in another system, would they be better players? Maybe, but would they be GOOD ENOUGH to warrant NOT playing LeBron Ball? In my opinion, there’s a 99.9% chance they would NOT create the best playoff offense ever and a top 5 three year playoff stretch in NBA history and therefore, logically, I would want to run LeBron Ball and maximize my chances of winning. Sure, players may not like this, but statistically, it’s your best chance of winning.
Now, people might argue: Why not both? Maybe they have a point.But to create those offenses that the Cavs did, to me, given the pieces they had and the ages they had, it had to be a constant dose of LeBron Ball. It’s hard to imagine a case in which it’s diluted LeBron Ball mixed with a another system. Watch those 2016 to 2017 playoffs games (and against Toronto this year); everyone runs the plays and actions to get to their spots off of LeBron’s actions and it’s based on timing and repetition and frankly, LeBron’s genius. People think that you can just have LeBron break down defenses and find those players. Sometimes that’s true, but take a look at the screens TT set for Kyrie and Love, and how Kyrie would screen for LeBron and LeBron for Kyrie. That 1/4 pick and role was so good with the three around them setting picks and moving to spots where they’re hit with a perfect pass and able to shoot. Watch those games—it’s actually really beautiful basketball.
1. First stint with the Cavs: Which players would people have given the ball to and have them develop? I can’t think of a single one. IF you have LeBron on your team, and he is able to generate all time offense,
then the opportunity cost of giving someone else the ball to create is steep and will cost you games. Otherwise, if you
don’t think any player is worthy of developing whom you think will help you win by having the ball in his hands, have him play his role and win games. That player will NEVER be a key cog but rather a role player, so MAXIMiZE his role player abilities.
Isn’t that making him better? Yeah, maybe he’s not individually better, but by maximizing his role, he’s maximizing his contribution to winning MORE than he would by developing all,around because he would not develop enough to warrant getting the ball in his hands.
Now, let’s say you’re willing to lose some games and hope the players develop and you reap the benefits down the road. Fine.
What are the odds that those players will develop enough to justify not playing LeBron Ball that generates an all time offense? IF I’m going to take the ball out of his hands and want someone else to create, then THAT offense better be as good as LeBron Ball.
If it’s not, then what am I doing? I wrote a bit about this in a previous post.
I’ll talk about Kyrie later who was a special offensive talent and he WAS given the ball and he didn’t produce the offense that LeBron did until 2017 and only when shooting out of ISO which is a bizarre statistic unto itself. But yes, when we found someone like Kyrie, he WAS given the ball.
The first stint Cavs won 66 and 61 games in 2009 and 2010 with SRSs at 8.68 and 6.21, respectively. Those are literally the two best consecutive seasons in aggregate for non title winning teams ever with an argument from about three or four other teams, all of which had multiple hall of fame players.
Now, is it possible that we could have taken players on those teams (or from 2004 to 2008), have them develop and we’d be just as good or even comparable? If not, then have those players play their roles; when they did, LeBron made them “ better” becuse through their roles, we won 127 games; if they were outside of the system of LeBron Ball and were “developed,” it’s highly unlikely they do anything of note.
As far as playing their roles, Mo Williams had his three best offensive seasons in Cleveland. His TS% and ORatings plummet without LeBron. He played at an all- star scoring level with LeBron and played like shit at all other times. Boobie peaked into a 61% TS Player in 2010.
The other players—some of them had their best moments with LeBron and others didn’t, but none of them were players of note outside of playing with LeBron. Those were the same players LeBron, through playing LeBron Ball, have back to back seasons that put them at the top of the list of teams that didn’t win the title. If they didn’t play LeBron Ball, would they accomplish more? I don’t think anyone thinks so.
Switch Mo or Boobie with Klay Thompson and I see two titles in 2009/2010 with decent chance we beat juggernaut Boston in 2008 (it was a one possession game with one minute left in game 7–Klay is literally better than everyone else on that Cavs’ roster). LeBron never leaves the first time.
2. In Miami, both Wade and Bron played best with the ball in their hands and Wade couldn’t shoot. They obviously needed a system and they decided to give the keys to LeBron and that led them to their most efficient offense ever and, until the Warriors, the highest TS% as a team and offense minus offensive rebounds in NBA history. Wade still had two of his three highest TS% years with LeBron. Obviously his usage and stats related to usage would go down and he began his decline right after 2011. Two of Bosh’s three highest TS% years were with LeBron. Obviously his other stats went down as there’s only one ball, but having Bosh as a #1 option ISNT good enough to win a title. He improved as a shooter and as a pick and roll defender with James.
3. Back in Cleveland. Kyrie is a special offensive talent so he WAS given an opportunity to develop. He had the ball in his hands as much as LeBron did (I wrote a little about that yesterday
All Things LeBron Thread )
As for Love, his defense has improved and he’s a better shooter. He can’t be a #1 option and play in the post because if that’s a team’s first option, it’s not going anywhere. I have written many times about how Love’s production hasn’t gone down at all in Cleveland commensurate with going from a #1 option to #2 or #3.
Everything Cavs Thread: Cabs or Cavs? Making it Rain with a pastor, BleacherRepcrt, & wine hats
The opportunity cost of letting Love play like he did in Minny takes away from the juggernaut offense you want to create.
Also, the Love/LeBron pairing from 2017 had a higher +/- than any Shaq/Kobe pairing ever did.
Now for this year not helping Lebron’s cause, who would anyone like to see with the ball in his hands? The new players didn’t have a chance to acclimatize, and then froze up in the playoffs. Clarkson actually had his BEST stretch shooting while playing with LeBron in the regular season.
JR and Shump and Delly and Mozgov and Korver and Frye and Green had some of their best stretches of their careers with Lebron. Green had the best year of his career by far.
Additionally, LeBron had 100% of his team’s playoffs VORP this year. I posted about it here: LeBron James
You can accrue VORP in many ways (rebounding, defense, etc). Our players did NONE OF THOSE THINGS. I wouldn’t develop ANY of these players we have other than Cedi. He should have had a chance to initiate some plays throughout the year. As for the rest of them, DO YOUR JOB AND PLAY YOUR ROLE BECAUSE YOU ARENT GOOD ENOUGH TO WARRANT GETTING THE BALL IN YOUR HANDS. We gave it to Clarkson and he literally had the worst playoffs in NBA history. Clarkson was decent in the regular season and a good spot up shooter with us. He froze in the playoffs. That wasn’t LeBron making him worse.
LeBron’s teammates didn’t perform even though he made their jobs easy for them. You have two options: they are given the opportunity to develop and create and lead OR LeBron does. Do you think any of the players on this team should have been given the opportunity to lead and hope to win playoff games?
If they were given more opportunities to create, we lose in round 1, 4-1.
Ok, so then LeBron can make your life easy and you can make open shots. Nobody else is going to create them. Just make your shots, defend, rebound, and you have a chance,
and they didn’t even do that.
Love missed open layups that LeBron created. The team shot 36.6% on spot up opportunities after being #1 or #2 in spot up shooting for four straight regular seasons. They defended like shit and basically didn’t do anything. Not sure what more LeBron could have done. I highly doubt that if these players over all these had more time to “develop”or had the ball more test the would do anything that helped the Cavs win titles.
