Star Wars 8: The Last Jedi

[gourimoko]

So that would mean Rey is Leia and Han's daughter. Which was my original theory and gut feeling when I first saw the movie. I just based it off their interactions with how much they both loved Rey. Her piloting the Falcon could be a clue too. But if I remember correctly, my theory was quickly shutdown in the TFA thread so I don't think anyone else here believes that. Everyone convinced me she was Luke's. This theory makes much more sense to me though so I'll trust my original gut feeling.

I'll put this to you...

If she was Han and Leia's daughter they would not have let her go after what happened with Ben.

It's much more likely that Rey is Kylo's first-cousin, daughter of Luke, while Kylo is the son of Leia.

Han and Leia were too hands off with Rey; makes much more sense if she's their niece, rather than their daughter.

 

[macbdog]

I'll put this to you...

If she was Han and Leia's daughter they would not have let her go after what happened with Ben.

It's much more likely that Rey is Kylo's first-cousin, daughter of Luke, while Kylo is the son of Leia.

Han and Leia were too hands off with Rey; makes much more sense if she's their niece, rather than their daughter.

And you didn't read my post: Luke mind-wiped everyone to protect her. He knew it was the only way to keep Kylo from mowing the true Chosen One was out there. They don't remember her but feel some kind of connection. Also, you think just prior to her going off on a mission to destroy the base: 'Oh hey we are your parents who abandoned you for 15 years. And the emo weirdo got have to fight? Your brother who once tried to kill you. Good luck sweetie!' much more likely is that if they somehow remember they knew it wasn't the time or placed for bombshell revelations.

 

[Walter White]

I'll put this to you...

If she was Han and Leia's daughter they would not have let her go after what happened with Ben.

It's much more likely that Rey is Kylo's first-cousin, daughter of Luke, while Kylo is the son of Leia.

Han and Leia were too hands off with Rey; makes much more sense if she's their niece, rather than their daughter.

I'm not saying that is very possible. I mean it is likely one of these two options, I doubt there is a surprise third option. But his theory explained this, Han and Leia don't recognize her as a daughter because they were mind wiped by Luke. Which, why weren't they mind wiped about Kylo then? I don't know, not to be totally ignorant. And all to protect Rey I guess. Kylo seemed to know Rey. I don't know, there interaction in the interogation scene also felt really brother-sister like to me, like Rey trying to defend them and Kylo telling her that they aren't as good as you think. I don't remember the exact quotes, but it makes some sense.

I think the idea has to be entertained because Luke can have that connection in a niece way instead of daughter way and it still fits. And it doesn't go into any complications about Luke finding a wife or whatever. The disaster of what happened with Kylo might be enough for Luke to go into hiding, or mind wiping people.

 

[gourimoko]

And you didn't read my post: Luke mind-wiped everyone to protect her.

Everyone?

They don't remember her but feel some mind of connection. Also, you think just prior to her going off: 'oh hey we are your parents. And the emo weirdo got have to fight? Your brother. Good luck!' much more likely is that if they somehow remember they knew it wasn't the time or placed for bombshell revelations.

Well, let's go through it..

I.. don't think they're her parents, so no, I don't think that's what happened.

I also don't think Luke mind-wiped anyone; I'm not sure if that's a Jedi thing to do.. When the Jedi Council did that to Revan, it was considered a means of using him against his will. Also, if Luke had the ability to wipe people's minds, why not wipe Ben's mind? Seems like that would cut to the chase a bit.

But, if we leave the mind-wiping to the side for a moment; here's the reasons why I think Rey is Luke's daughter and not Leia's:

I think that Leia told Rey who she was; I think it's obvious her identity is
revealed to her by the end of the film. Rey and Leia have literally no connection whatsoever in this movie until that scene, and they're seen embracing.

I think that's because Leia is Rey's aunt, not her mother... She's sending Rey off to her father; hence, why she is going alone and without the Alliance.

It's also why Luke's lightsaber belongs to her specifically and not Finn who can just build his own.

I also don't think Han goes off on a suicide mission to confront Ben if he could take his daughter and leave.

Han's attitude towards Kylo is completely different than it is towards Rey, same goes for Leia. It wouldn't make sense if she was their daughter given how the movie portrayed them.

We'll see soon enough though won't we?

 

[gourimoko]

I'm not saying that is very possible. I mean it is likely one of these two options, I doubt there is a surprise third option. But his theory explained this, Han and Leia don't recognize her as a daughter because they were mind wiped by Luke. Which, why weren't they mind wiped about Kylo then? I don't know, not to be totally ignorant. And all to protect Rey I guess. Kylo seemed to know Rey. I don't know, there interaction in the interogation scene also felt really brother-sister like to me, like Rey trying to defend them and Kylo telling her that they aren't as good as you think. I don't remember the exact quotes, but it makes some sense.

I think the idea has to be entertained because Luke can have that connection in a niece way instead of daughter way and it still fits. And it doesn't go into any complications about Luke finding a wife or whatever. The disaster of what happened with Kylo might be enough for Luke to go into hiding, or mind wiping people.

Walter, everyone knows who Rey is... they just don't tell her until the end of the film.

Rey knows who she is when she leaves the Alliance... it's just that Abrams decided not to tell the audience.

I don't think there were any mind wipes, to be honest.

 

[gourimoko]

@macbdog @Walter White

I could see there being some mind-wiping, in retrospect.. I could see there being a mental block for Rey.. I'm not sure about "everyone" though.. I mean, doesn't it make more sense to block Rey's mind so that she can't be used against the Alliance; rather than wiping the minds of everyone who knew her?

I mean, what is gained by wiping Han Solo's mind?

 

[Walter White]

@macbdog @Walter White

I could see there being some mind-wiping, in retrospect.. I could see there being a mental block for Rey.. I'm not sure about "everyone" though.. I mean, doesn't it make more sense to block Rey's mind so that she can't be used against the Alliance; rather than wiping the minds of everyone who knew her?

I mean, what is gained by wiping Han Solo's mind?

Well, if the objective was to protect Rey and Han or Leia couldn't see her, it would be much less painful if they didn't know about her. I mean if they did, they probably couldn't resist going to see her or take her which would blow the cover. Especially when the objective is to protect from Kylo potentially corrupting her, that is way too close for comfort and easy to find being related. It could be done for protection.

My main question is that Kylo seems really strong in the force, perhaps too strong to be completely mind wiped? Or maybe that doesn't make a difference. Rey was really strong in the force and didn't even know it. I guess that could be attributed to Luke being like one the strongest force users ever. But trust me, I'm even searching for more holes in the theory and I think it is plausible. I might need to rewatch the movie.

 

[Jack Brickman]

To be fair, while it didn't appear that way on film; the Jedi killed by Order 66 were all field commanders over hundreds of thousands of clone troopers. The Republic was ordering clone troopers by the millions from Kamino.

They didn't sense any treachery because the clone troopers themselves didn't know they were going to kill the Jedi until the order was given. And there was no larger knowledge of the plot because of Palpatine's ability to shroud the future with the Dark Side of the Force.

I think, in the interest of time, the whole plot line of Vader going and hunting down the remaining Jedi that weren't killed by Order 66 was just cut out... even though that's what everyone came to see.

Essentially, Act I & II should have been condensed into a single shorter initial opening act. And then the movie's mid-point should have been where Episode 3 ended.

I know all of that, but the way the movie shot it all just made it seem so piss poor that the Jedi just looked wildly incompetent and weak. Plus, it was so fucking obvious that Palpatine was the bad guy and the Jedi were all just too inept to notice. I mean, the guy radiated evil the entire trilogy and was very clearly manipulating pieces to gain power for himself, and the Jedi just kind of shrugged and figured everything was cool.

And I agree that the coolest thing to see would have been Vader hunting down all the Jedi, and we got precisely none of that. I also loved how Anakin went from not entirely sure about this whole Dark Side thing to slaughtering children wholesale over about five minutes of screen time.

 

[gourimoko]

Well, if the objective was to protect Rey and Han or Leia couldn't see her, it would be much less painful if they didn't know about her. I mean if they did, they probably couldn't resist going to see her or take her which would blow the cover. Especially when the objective is to protect from Kylo potentially corrupting her, that is way too close for comfort and easy to find being related. It could be done for protection.

But why would Han Solo be fucking around doing smuggling missions with Chewbacca instead of looking after his daughter? He could take her anywhere, and just stay with her.. Remember, Han isn't part of the Alliance any longer, so... what's stopping him and Chewy from looking after her..

Clearly, it wasn't his decision.

Also, Han and Leia are not part of Rey's flashback.

She has a flashback to Cloud City, in the hall where Luke and Vader battled it out; that's got very little to do with Leia. Luke's lightsaber is calling to her, not Anakin's. And she sees Luke and R2-D2 near her, with Kylo coming after her. She never once hears Leia's voice, or see's Leia or Han in any of her flashbacks. She sees Luke, and hears Obi-Wan, Luke's mentor. She hears Yoda's word's, said to Luke during his training on Degobah about "it's energy (that surrounds us, and binds us)."

At the end of the film, Rey is in tears because Luke is her father.

The Skywalker story goes from trilogy to trilogy passing from Anakin, Luke to Rey; rather than via Leia who Abrams didn't see fit to make a Jedi.

And I will also offer you this: even if Leia and Han were originally intended to be Rey's parents, they likely aren't going to be anymore now that Han has been killed off and Carrie Fisher has died. Unfortunately, I just don't think they could make that work.

My main question is that Kylo seems really strong in the force, perhaps too strong to be completely mind wiped?

Ridiculously strong.. Like absurdly so.. I really don't understand why they made him this way.

Or maybe that doesn't make a difference. Rey was really strong in the force and didn't even know it.

Which.. makes little sense when you think about how the Force works.

I guess that could be attributed to Luke being like one the strongest force users ever. But trust me, I'm even searching for more holes in the theory and I think it is plausible. I might need to rewatch the movie.

Yeah.. the movie was pretty bad, but Abrams made it so that the story could go either way.

I think they could do whatever and just explain it away; but, I do think the original intent was that Rey was supposed to be Luke's daughter.

And FWIW Walter; in the original Expanded Universe story; these characters were cousins, not siblings.

Kylo Ren is a complete rip-off of Jacen Solo. His name "Ben" was borrowed from Ben Skywalker, son of Mara and Luke Skywalker; using the same origin (Obi-Wan).

Han's son falling to the dark side happened in the EU. Abrams just took the character "Ben" swapped the name over to the Solo family removing Jacen's name and siblings, then changed the gender and gave the character the name Rey.

The age difference, dynamic, etc, is roughly the same. Jacen... I mean.. Kylo's fascination with the Force, the Dark Side, his internal conflict, and obsession over Darth Vader, are all from the EU.

So I'd guess, based on that as well, that Rey was intended to be the child of Luke Skywalker.

I had thought we'd have seen Mara (by some other name) at some point; but I'm guessing she's dead and Kylo or the Knights of Ren murdered her -- hence Luke's exile (which also happened in the EU, the exile I mean).

 

[Walter White]

Kylo seemed to know Rey right? Or did he just know she was powerful in the force? He just didn't want her to activate her powers or if she did, he wanted her to be on his side. Or maybe his memory was brought back once he interacted with her which is what Luke didn't want to happen. Rey was powerful with the force and was completely clueless. Luke might be tapping into powers that have never been done on this level for all we know. It is hard to say.

It would be plausible that if Snoke got control of Kylo that Luke couldn't do anything about it at that point. I mean Luke doesn't have the ability to change Kylo's nature and being. His only play is to protect everyone else. So maybe Kylo is aware or vaguely aware of a connection but Snoke influenced his perspective.

A crazy idea is that maybe Snoke wants Kylo to kill Rey or knows he would kill Rey if she was discovered so Kylo is the one that is trying to protect her and mindwipes them of Rey. Probably not true at all but I'll throw it out there

 

[gourimoko]

I know all of that, but the way the movie shot it all just made it seem so piss poor that the Jedi just looked wildly incompetent and weak.

I agree.. it was done poorly.

Plus, it was so fucking obvious that Palpatine was the bad guy and the Jedi were all just too inept to notice. I mean, the guy radiated evil the entire trilogy and was very clearly manipulating pieces to gain power for himself, and the Jedi just kind of shrugged and figured everything was cool.

To be clear, they suspected him since AotC, and openly questioned him in the first act of RotS. By the third act, they went to go seize him and would have succeeded had Anakin not intervened.

FWIW, the Jedi Order displacing the Chancellor is outside of their mandate. They don't have the authority to dispense justice on elected officials in the Galactic Republic... so as much as they might disagree with Palpatine, he was duly elected. It wasn't until that changed, and he had extended his powers beyond what was legal that they felt compelled to openly push against him.

And I agree that the coolest thing to see would have been Vader hunting down all the Jedi, and we got precisely none of that. I also loved how Anakin went from not entirely sure about this whole Dark Side thing to slaughtering children wholesale over about five minutes of screen time.

The younglings ... it was bad direction.

But keep in mind, he'd already done it in Attack of the Clones. A lot of folks forget that he says quite clearly that he massacred "not just the men, but the women.. and the children. All of them."

Also note that Vader destroys an entire planet without thinking twice in A New Hope. Billions of people died. So that act is far, far more grotesque than anything that happened in RotS. But with that said, I get it.. it wasn't done very well, and it was far far too abrupt.

 

[Walter White]

Also, Han and Leia are not part of Rey's flashback.

She has a flashback to Cloud City, in the hall where Luke and Vader battled it out; that's got very little to do with Leia. Luke's lightsaber is calling to her, not Anakin's. And she sees Luke and R2-D2 near her, with Kylo coming after her. She never once hears Leia's voice, or see's Leia or Han in any of her flashbacks. She sees Luke, and hears Obi-Wan, Luke's mentor. She hears Yoda's word's, said to Luke during his training on Degobah about "it's energy (that surrounds us, and binds us)."

At the end of the film, Rey is in tears because Luke is her father.

The Skywalker story goes from trilogy to trilogy passing from Anakin, Luke to Rey; rather than via Leia who Abrams didn't see fit to make a Jedi.

And I will also offer you this: even if Leia and Han were originally intended to be Rey's parents, they likely aren't going to be anymore now that Han has been killed off and Carrie Fisher has died. Unfortunately, I just don't think they could make that work.

It is hard to argue against that. That makes sense too. Leia and Han aren't particularly strong in the force, so it wouldn't make complete sense for Rey to be unless she came from a strong force user like Luke. But genetics can be weird in the real world so who knows? But she definitely sees strong force users in her flashback because she is strong herself. It probably wouldn't make sense to see Leia or Han anyway.

If she is Luke's, I wonder how much time they will spend on the topic of her mother then. It doesn't necessarily have to be that important to the story, but it will be interesting how important they make it. I'd be a little disappointed if all they did was just throw it to the side.

The responsibility of Episode 8 is a tall order. Make a good movie while also somehow salvage TFA as best as you can.

 

[gourimoko]

Kylo seemed to know Rey right?

Yes. He figures out very quickly who she is.

Or did he just know she was powerful in the force?

Her power in the force intrigued him, but no; he knew who she was, it was obvious that he figured it out.

He just didn't want her to activate her powers or if she did, he wanted her to be on his side.

Probably, yes.

Or maybe his memory was brought back once he interacted with her which is what Luke didn't want to happen.

Luke couldn't have mind wiped Kylo.. if he did, he wouldn't be Kylo; he'd be Ben. Nothing is wrong with Kylo Ren's memory. He just didn't initially recognize her visually; but, eventually he does.

Rey was powerful with the force and was completely clueless. Luke might be tapping into powers that have never been done on this level for all we know. It is hard to say.

It's hard to build a plot/story that way, I think... If Luke can control Ren's mind, why couldn't he stop him from killing billions of people with Starkiller Base, let alone Han Solo?

It would be plausible that if Snoke got control of Kylo that Luke couldn't do anything about it at that point. I mean Luke doesn't have the ability to change Kylo's nature and being.

But if Luke could control Ben, he never becomes Kylo; so again, there can't be anything wrong with Kylo's memory... he clearly recognizes Rey (eventually) just as Han and Leia do.

His only play is to protect everyone else. So maybe Kylo is aware or vaguely aware of a connection but Snoke influenced his perspective.

I'm not sure to what end.. If anything, Snoke would want Rey -- but all he seems to care about is Starkiller Base, and BB-8.

A crazy idea is that maybe Snoke wants Kylo to kill Rey or knows he would kill Rey if she was discovered so Kylo is the one that is trying to protect her and mindwipes them of Rey. Probably not true at all but I'll throw it out there

Well, anything is possible man...

 

[gourimoko]

It is hard to argue against that. That makes sense too. Leia and Han aren't particularly strong in the force, so it wouldn't make complete sense for Rey to be unless she came from a strong force user like Luke. But genetics can be weird in the real world so who knows? But she definitely sees strong force users in her flashback because she is strong herself. It probably wouldn't make sense to see Leia or Han anyway.

If she is Luke's, I wonder how much time they will spend on the topic of her mother then. It doesn't necessarily have to be that important to the story, but it will be interesting how important they make it. I'd be a little disappointed if all they did was just throw it to the side.

The responsibility of Episode 8 is a tall order. Make a good movie while also somehow salvage TFA as best as you can.

But Leia is strong in the Force; just as strong as Luke is... In Empire, she hears Luke through the Force. Luke says explicitly in Return of the Jedi that she's just as capable as he is, and the entire second-half of the movie makes a huge point about just how strong Leia could be if turned to the dark side.. This is what drives Luke over the edge.. it wasn't the Emperor and Vader's efforts to turn him, but the thought that they would torture and turn his twin sister.

Abrams just decided not to make Leia a Jedi even though she always was intended to become a Jedi. I thought that was vile, personally... But whatever.. Nonetheless, in TFA, Leia simply decided not to pursue a career in Jedi-stuff, because... she had so many things going on and couldn't find the time... Not as though being a Jedi would help the Alliance or anything..

EDIT: Here's the stupid fuck himself, JJ Abrams on Leia being a Jedi:

"It was a great question, and one that we talked about quite a bit, even with Carrie [Fisher]…Why did she not take advantage of this natural Force strength that this character had. And one of the answers was that it was simply a choice that she made, that her decision to run the Rebellion, and ultimately this Resistance, and consider herself a General, as opposed to a Jedi. It was simply a choice that she took." -dumbass

Keep in mind that the Jedi were field commanders and generals and led the Republic in their wars. But yea...

 

[Walter White]

But Leia is strong in the Force; just as strong as Luke is... In Empire, she hears Luke through the Force. Luke says explicitly in Return of the Jedi that she's just as capable as he is, and the entire second-half of the movie makes a huge point about just how strong Leia could be if turned to the dark side.. This is what drives Luke over the edge.. it wasn't the Emperor and Vader's efforts to turn him, but the thought that they would torture and turn his twin sister.

Abrams just decided not to make Leia a Jedi even though she always was intended to become a Jedi. I thought that was vile, personally... But whatever.. Nonetheless, in TFA, Leia simply decided not to pursue a career in Jedi-stuff, because... she had so many things going on and couldn't find the time... Not as though being a Jedi would help the Alliance or anything..

EDIT: Here's the stupid fuck himself, JJ Abrams on Leia being a Jedi:

"It was a great question, and one that we talked about quite a bit, even with Carrie [Fisher]…Why did she not take advantage of this natural Force strength that this character had. And one of the answers was that it was simply a choice that she made, that her decision to run the Rebellion, and ultimately this Resistance, and consider herself a General, as opposed to a Jedi. It was simply a choice that she took." -dumbass

Keep in mind that the Jedi were field commanders and generals and led the Republic in their wars. But yea...

That gives more legitimacy to the Leia is Rey's mother theory though. But honest question, if Leia was just as strong in the force, she doesn't seem to use force powers much. It is just because she wasn't trained? Your edit sort of answers my question but that is why I didn't assume she was as strong. We see the force connection, but not many force based powers. I guess they all start that way though. Everybody has to learn, but it is a tragedy to have that force power and not really use it even close to it's full potential.