Tyronn Lue has been fired

[gourimoko]

I think my post was perfectly clear and fair. I added "But we have no way of knowing this" at the last moment cause I felt obligated in a way.
What has Lue done up until this point before he took a team with LBJ and the other 2 superstars? he was an assistant coach but without a lot of experience.

Both Lue and Blatt were rookie head coaches. The difference is that Lue had years of NBA experience as a player and also worked in the NBA as an assistant coach whereas Blatt had done neither.

Lue's NBA experience as a player and an assistant (don't forget he was also Blatt's assistant) exceed's Blatt's experience at the time that he took over the Cavs.

So again, your point here doesn't make much sense to me? What am I missing?

Moreover, it's important to point out, since I realize this is where you're about to go: being a head coach in Euroleague is a completely different job than being a head coach in the NBA. The two are not very comparable and we don't see much transition from one to the other, particularly in the direction of Euroleague coaches coming to the NBA and enjoying great success.

I'm basing my opinion just for the fact that Blatt has achieved a lot in his long stint in europe and is a well respected coach for long ass time. Now he may not be very good NBA coach, we don't have enough data right now (but i'm sue he will come back to a young team with promise in 2 years) but Blatt was a damn good coach in europe.

Yes, but you're discounting his time in the NBA.

Your argument is irrational because it's self-contradictory:

1) What has Lue done up until this point before he took a team with LBJ and the other 2 superstars?

Yet..

2) What has Blatt done up until this point before he took a team with LBJ and the other 2 superstars?

Both were rookie head coaches with the exact same roster. One won the Finals, got the team to gel, is maximizing the Big 3, isn't causing problems in the locker room, and has us on pace to win another title. The other guy didn't do any of those things when put in the exact same position to win.

Moreover, Blatt couldn't handle LBJ or those 2 superstars, with reports suggesting the team wanted him gone. I think we can be fairly confident that Blatt had no idea how to use Kevin Love and that hurt the Cavs. He had no idea how to handle LeBron James, and that hurt the Cavs. To the point where the GM had to fire the guy midseason because the writing was on the wall?

But "what has Lue done?"

I just can't tell you that I have faith in Lue if he coached a team without a trancendent superstar like LBJ that understands the game so well and acts as the coach on the court.

Again, this is self-contradictory.

If James is such a great coach, what happened last year with Blatt?

You can see that the team just don't know what to do when he is off the floor so that has to be somewhaton the coach, don't you think?
I think any coach can look good with LBJ on his side.

Then why did we fire Blatt midseason? He wasn't a good coach on this team, so again, your point is very difficult to understand.

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

Both Lue and Blatt were rookie head coaches. The difference is that Lue had years of NBA experience as a player and also worked in the NBA as an assistant coach whereas Blatt had done neither.

Lue's NBA experience as a player and an assistant (don't forget he was also Blatt's assistant) exceed's Blatt's experience at the time that he took over the Cavs.

So again, you're point here doesn't make much sense. Moreover, it's important to point out, since I realize this is where you're about to go: being a head coach in Euroleague is a completely different job than being a head coach in the NBA. The two are not very comparable and we don't see much transition from one to the other, particularly in the direction of Euroleague coaches coming to the NBA and enjoying great success.



Yes, but you're discounting his time in the NBA.

Your argument is irrational because it's self-contradictory:

1) What has Lue done up until this point before he took a team with LBJ and the other 2 superstars?

Yet..

2) What has Blatt done up until this point before he took a team with LBJ and the other 2 superstars?

Moreover, Blatt couldn't handle LBJ or those 2 superstars, with reports suggesting the team wanted him gone. I think we can be fairly confident that Blatt had no idea how to use Kevin Love and that hurt the Cavs. He had no idea how to handle LeBron James, and that hurt the Cavs. To the point where the GM had to fire the guy midseason because the writing was on the wall?

But "what has Lue done?"



Again, this is self-contradictory.

If James is such a great coach, what happened last year with Blatt?



Then why did we fire Blatt midseason? He wasn't a good coach on this team, so again, your point is very difficult to understand.

What do you mean? Blatt wasn't fired because he wasn't a good coach.. Cavs had a better winning percentage than they do now with Lue without Kyrie, he was fired because he didn't fit with the team and the biggest star of the league in particular Lebron.
You can say it's part of coaching and I agree, it is. But when I talk about a good coach I mean how the team plays on the court and I thought they played really well when you consider everything.
The team actively tried to sabotage him at some point (that Portland game and the GSW game is suspect too) and yet he still produced a winning product. It wasn't perfect and we have no way of determing whether the players executed what he wanted them to do or not, we have no way of gauging how good he is in reality, not until he coaches a different team that respects him enough. He might be a bust after all in the NBA.

Second thing I wanna say is that, you keep saying that Blatt didn't know how to use Love. Okay, he used Love as a spacer and Lue uses him as a post scorer much more than Blatt and that made Love a much more confident player and he thrives on confidence.
Lue didn't invent the wheel, he isn't running anything remarkable or sophisticated through Love, he only lets him post up so there are still lots of other ways to use Love that are not being used. Let's not kid ourselves, though it's nice to see him much more involved and engaged.

And I really don't think i'm contradicting myself, not at all. Maybe the point i'm trying to make isn't clear to you or i'm not explaining myself clearly but I don't think i'm contradicting myself.
Yes, Euroleauge is different, it's only 40 minutes and the rotations are different because of that, the personnel management is also different. But the experience he has in how to run an offense or defense, different sets that he has developed over the years got to be something.

 

[gourimoko]

What do you mean? Blatt wasn't fired because he wasn't a good coach..

Say again?

Cavs had a better winning percentage than they do now with Lue without Kyrie,

That's completely false... What on Earth are you talking about?

When Blatt got fired, Cavs were 30-11 and had been blown out by Golden State and then literally threw a fucking game to send a message.

Cavs today are 23-6..

Umm.. do the math? How is Blatt's 30-11 (.732) > Lue's 23-6 (.793)?

he was fired because he didn't fit with the team and the biggest star of the league in particular Lebron.

He was fired because he lost the team; and if you go back and read Jason Lloyd's columns he said they contemplated firing Blatt before the season even started. He was fucking up left and right, not holding players accountable, not maximizing his stars, not garnering the respect of the veterans; he wasn't a good coach while he was here, irrespective of what he was in Europe.

You can say it's part of coaching and I agree, it is. But when I talk about a good coach I mean how the team plays on the court and I thought they played really well when you consider everything.

That's not rational. You don't say LeBron is good so that means Blatt is good. You have to look at the things that Blatt effects, impacts, and what are the results that he's getting. To argue that the team was better under Blatt compared to Lue, which is essentially what you've attempted to do, is borderline insane.

The team actively tried to sabotage him at some point (that Portland game and the GSW game is suspect too) and yet he still produced a winning product.

How did he produce a winning product? You mean he was part of a winning product and we won in spite of him, or we won because the team listened to his instruction?? And if they did listen to him, beyond LeBron's on-floor coaching (as you put it), then why would they sabotage him? Why would we fire Blatt? What's the problem? Or is this all just made up and we fired him for shits and giggles?

It wasn't perfect and we have no way of determing whether the players executed what he wanted them to do or not, we have no way of gauging how good he is in reality, not until he coaches a different team that respects him enough. He might be a bust after all in the NBA.

If this is your position, then it's again, irrational.

We can measure his success, empirically, versus Lue's, and derive an obvious result. You claim we can't know these things, yet, the end result is there. If you're saying we can't do this, then we can't ever measure the impact a coach has on a team.. I mean, this isn't reading of tea leaves, there are certain known values here that we can directly observe.

Second thing I wanna say is that, you keep saying that Blatt didn't know how to use Love. Okay, he used Love as a spacer and Lue uses him as a post scorer much more than Blatt and that made Love a much more confident player and he thrives on confidence.

Right.

Lue didn't invent the wheel, he isn't running anything remarkable or sophisticated through Love, he only lets him post up so there are still lots of other ways to use Love that are not being used. Let's not kid ourselves, though it's nice to see him much involved and engaged.

Why would you be so foolish as to attempt to reinvent the wheel in the first place?

As someone in the sciences, this is kinda rule #1. Don't reinvent the wheel. If you have a superstar (well, you first have to acknowledge that Love is a superstar, ahem) who says "I'm not being used correctly;" maybe, just maybe you should listen to him and put him in the fucking post. The results speak for themselves, do they not?

I would say this is one of the most damning problems with Blatt; the mismanagement of Kevin Love.

And I really don't think i'm contradicting myself, not at all.

Yet, you are, in a big way. Try to step back and re-read what we've discussed. You're holding these two men to completely different standards. Why?

Maybe the point i'm trying to make isn't clear to you or i'm not explaining myself clearly but I don't think i'm contradicting myself.

I suppose that's fair, but, I'm not sure how else to interpret what it is you're saying given you've said this a few different ways. It seems we should give Blatt the benefit of the doubt, yet we should expect Lue to come up with creative new ways to use a low post scorer like Kevin Love? Or that Lue's record this year is worse than Blatt's when he got fired (which is false), or that Lue was unaccomplished in the league prior to taking over the Cavs (when the man was an NBA champion who coached for an NBA champion).

Seems strange bro... To say the least.

Yes, Euroleauge is different, it's only 40 minutes and the rotations are different because of that, the personnel management is also different. But the experience he has in how to run an offense or defense, different sets that he has developed over the years got to be something.

It's far more different than I think you're giving credit too.. Coaching the Euroleague is an entirely different affair -- that style of coaching would not work in a player driven league like the NBA, nor do I think you could ever win a championship with such a coaching style given the talent required to compete at the highest levels.

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

Say again?

That's completely false... What on Earth are you talking about?

When Blatt got fired, Cavs were 30-11 and had been blown out by Golden State and then literally threw a fucking game to send a message.

Cavs today are 23-6..

Umm.. do the math? How is Blatt's 30-11 (.732) > Lue's 23-6 (.793)?

I included the winning percentage from last year when Lue took over. Damn, I was advocating for Lue.. I was just saying that Lue shouldn't be judged based on his new championship because I thought Blatt would have been a champion too if it wasn't for that freak injury.(not blatt's broken nose )

He was fired because he lost the team; and if you go back and read Jason Lloyd's columns he said they contemplated firing Blatt before the season even started. He was fucking up left and right, not holding players accountable, not maximizing his stars, not garnering the respect of the veterans; he wasn't a good coach while he was here, irrespective of what he was in Europe.

He lost the team, sure.. I don't argue with that. That's why he was fired but I don't fully believe the media, they were very anti-blatt from the get go.

That's not rational. You don't say LeBron is good so that means Blatt is good. You have to look at the things that Blatt effects, impacts, and what are the results that he's getting. To argue that the team was better under Blatt compared to Lue, which is essentially what you've attempted to do, is borderline insane.

I never said they were better under Blatt. I liked some things that Blatt did and I like some things that Lue is doing, neither of them is perfect.

How did he produce a winning product? You mean he was part of a winning product and we won in spite of him, or we won because the team listened to his instruction?? And if they did listen to him, beyond LeBron's on-floor coaching (as you put it), then why would they sabotage him? Why would we fire Blatt? What's the problem? Or is this all just made up and we fired him for shits and giggles?

I think the Cavs knew that the inability to fit with the team was more of a detriment than his ability to coach. I think LEbron and the Cavs were confident in their ability to produce a similar product without him and gain a better playing atmosphere while doing so.
Don't forget that they struggled mightily at the start, Cavs looked bad.

Now I really don't know how this team would have looked if the Cavs had lost the finals in 2016, that Draymond suspension was a gift from the gods. They were probably going for a firesale.

If this is your position, then it's again, irrational.

We can measure his success, empirically, versus Lue's, and derive an obvious result. You claim we can't know these things, yet, the end result is there. If you're saying we can't do this, then we can't ever measure the impact a coach has on a team.. I mean, this isn't reading of tea leaves, there are certain known values here that we can directly observe.

We can and we can't, I just don't wanna go into it right now cause it wasn't my point..


Right.

Why would you be so foolish as to attempt to reinvent the wheel in the first place?

As someone in the sciences, this is kinda rule #1. Don't reinvent the wheel. If you have a superstar (well, you first have to acknowledge that Love is a superstar, ahem) who says "I'm not being used correctly;" maybe, just maybe you should listen to him and put him in the fucking post. The results speak for themselves, do they not?

I would say this is one of the most damning problems with Blatt; the mismanagement of Kevin Love.

"reinventing the wheel" might be over the top but what I meant was that Love was used differently in Minnesota, he was a playmaker from the post and we have yet to see that year. We don't see Love alot of other things that Love could do, don't you agree?

Also, I don't think Love is that good in the post, he is pretty limited from what I have seen. The biggest thing that Lue has done was to make Love a volume scorer and instill confidence. But i'd like to see him do more cause he is still much more versatile than this.

Yet, you are, in a big way. Try to step back and re-read what we've discussed. You're holding these two men to completely different standards. Why?

Am I? I was highly critical of Blatt but I also loved what he was doing at times. Cavs were highly inconsistent, sometimes they had the best ball movement and sometimes they just faded. This was probably because of the problems in the locker room rather than his ability to coach.
But at the end of the day Lue is the better fit when you consider everything, don't get me wrong man, I don't think Blatt is the coach for this team.

I suppose that's fair, but, I'm not sure how else to interpret what it is you're saying given you've said this a few different ways. It seems we should give Blatt the benefit of the doubt, yet we should expect Lue to come up with creative new ways to use a low post scorer like Kevin Love? Or that Lue's record this year is worse than Blatt's when he got fired (which is false), or that Lue was unaccomplished in the league prior to taking over the Cavs (when the man was an NBA champion who coached for an NBA champion).

Seems strange bro... To say the least.

Yep, Lue is doing far more than Blatt ever did in regards to using Love, that's for sure. I think Blatt just thought that hte team was much better as a whole with Love as a spacer. I also think think that Blatt thought the Cavs were better with Kevin off the floor.
It was pretty evident to me that Blatt really tried to put an emphasize on defense and just couldn't stand watching Love on that end and didn't think his offense would outweigh his defensive shortcomings. He was wrong in that regard.

It's far more different than I think you're giving credit too.. Coaching the Euroleague is an entirely different affair -- that style of coaching would not work in a player driven league like the NBA, nor do I think you could ever win a championship with such a coaching style given the talent required to compete at the highest levels.

I don't think it's much different, the Euroleague is all about 3's now too, it's about ball movement and the PnR, it's much closer than you think, just lesser athlethes.


God damnit, I never wrote so much in english.. fucking tiring.

 

[gourimoko]

Read the quotes since I don't know how to be proficient like you with these sort of replies. I highlighted my replies.

That's very difficult to make out. I'll just say that I think the point I was attempting to make, has been made, and leave it at that.

BTW, what is your native language?

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

That's very difficult to make out.

BTW, what is your native language?

Portuguese. Why is it difficult? just open it.

 

[gourimoko]

Portuguese. Why is it difficult? just open it.

Because to respond to it, I have to edit my words out of the quote and copy and paste from it. It's a pain in the ass.

Suffice it to say, I have nothing really to add given there seems to be no rebuttal.

BTW, Portugal, or Brazil or..?

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

K i'll fix it.

 

[gourimoko]

K i'll fix it.

Don't sweat it bro, I read what you wrote; I don't have a response to yours given there is no logical counterargument for me to rebut. Your post is more of a clarification of your point, which, I understood from the beginning. I get what it is you're saying, I'm just pointing out why I don't think it makes sense given the reality that both Lue and Blatt coached the same team with remarkably different results from beginning, middle, and end.

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

Don't sweat it bro, I read what you wrote; I don't have a response to yours given there is no logical counterargument for me to rebut. Your post is more of a clarification of your point, which, I understood from the beginning. I get what it is you're saying, I'm just pointing out why I don't think it makes sense given the reality that both Lue and Blatt coached the same team with remarkably different results from beginning, middle, and end.

False, it's not the same team, and the results were different.
how can you say that it's the same team? Lue has had a much better team than Blatt ever did, that's a fact. Lue struggled in the beginning so did Blatt but Blatt had a new team with obvious holes and a shitty roster outside of the Big 3 that had no chemistry in order overcome the shortcomings of the remaining players in the roster.

 

[gourimoko]

False, it's not the same team, and the results were different.

You're right, Blatt's team was better; it had Dellevadova and Timofey Mozgov on it and LeBron was a year younger.

This doesn't help your argument though, does it?

how can you say that it's the same team?

You're kidding right?

Kyrie Irving
Kevin Love
LeBron James
Iman Shumpert
JR Smith

Those are our core pieces.

James Jones, Mozgov, Delly, Williams, Jefferson played under both coaches.

Lue has had a much better team than Blatt ever did, that's a fact.

What?!

Lue struggled in the beginning so did Blatt but Blatt had a new team with obvious holes and a shitty roster outside of the Big 3 that had no chemistry in order overcome the shortcomings of the remaining players in the roster.

What are you talking about?

How is the roster today without Mozgov and Delly better than the one we had at the middle of last season?

The only addition made to the Cavs since Blatt's departure has been Channing Frye. Williams (who is finished) and Jefferson were the only substantially additions over the offseason with Blatt; and the Cavs lost Delly and Moz since this past offseason who are both NBA starters today.

The roster today is missing a backup PG and a legitimate big man; i.e., Delly and Mozgov. Yet, you're saying the roster today is better than it was before those two walked? That's absurd.

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

You're right, Blatt's team was better; it had Dellevadova and Timofey Mozgov on it and LeBron was a year younger.

This doesn't help your argument though, does it?



You're kidding right?

Kyrie Irving
Kevin Love
LeBron James
Iman Shumpert
JR Smith

Those are our core pieces.

James Jones, Mozgov, Delly, Williams, Jefferson played under both coaches.



What?!



What are you talking about?

How is the roster today without Mozgov and Delly better than the one we had at the middle of last season?

The only addition made to the Cavs since Blatt's departure has been Channing Frye. Williams, Jefferson were the only substantially additions over the offseason with Blatt; and the Cavs lost Delly and Moz who are both NBA starters today.

The roster today is missing a backup PG and a legitimate big man; i.e., Delly and Mozgov. Yet, you're saying the roster today is better than it was before those two walked? That's asinine.

You are a smart ass aren't you? lol
Blatt had to deal with a lot of different rosters, at first he had no one on the team, he had no Mozgov, JR and Shump and yet he was still being criticized non stop eventhough he had a terrible roster outside of the BIG 3 and Lebron was really struggling at the start if you remember, he was bad. Do you think that the Lebron Blatt had is anywhere near the Lebron we see now?

Then the trades are made and the Cavs play their best basketball(Yes, better than they do now).

Kyrie gets injured and so does Mozgov. Blatt starts his 2nd year without Kyrie and with Mozgov being a big net negative so he basically has the team going for 30-11 without Mozgov and Kyrie and no Frye. Kyrie was inserted slowly, he wasn't himself and he was playing limited minutes with no b2bs.
Don't downplay it too, Frye is a huge addition to this team, he makes a huge different and the Cavs don't look quite the same without him.

I'm logging off now.. good night.

 

[The Red Viper]

Jesus Fucking Christ.

Its almost been a year since we fired Blatt.

In the meantime, we have won a FUCKING NBA CHAMPIONSHIP. The team's chemistry is off the charts. Our three best players are playing how we imagined them to be playing when we got them initially. YET we are still talking about Blatt?

Seriously guys. Do we need to bring in Blatt everytime there is a discussion about Ty?

Blatt is gone. Whatever may be the reasons, things didn't pan out as we had hoped.

That doesn't make Blatt a bad coach. He was and is a good coach. May be just the right one for us.

 

[MirORich]

Tyronn Lue is the man. He's a great coach. Tons of playing experience and good coaching experience prior to getting this job, playing next to and coaching under some of the all time greats. Clearly is a good fit with our players. Clearly has the ability to reach ALL the players on this roster. Clearly has demonstrated excellent strategic acumen, both in macro gameplanning and in micro adjustments and in bounds plays/plays out of timeouts.

To date, there is not a single glaring weakness he exhibits. If we do not punish/downgrade Pop, Riley, Phil, Doc, and Spo for coaching stacked teams, there is no reason to do that for Lue.

So given all that, it's entirely irrelevant to me comparing the various differences and experiences of Lue vs. Blatt. We have a great coach who is great for this team on the whole and for all three of his superstars. So I'm not really concerned with what other coaches or previous coaches might do with the 2017 and beyond Cavs.

Of course all that said, I do agree with @gourimoko that Lue also happens to be a superior coach for this team and roster than Blatt was and not just for personality reasons. But again, it's really irrelevant to me, as I see us with a perfect fit at head coach currently, with numerous metrics and approaches to support that he is a perfect fit. As he's only been a head coach for less than one calendar year, it's pointless to try and pinpoint where is is historically in the pantheon of coaches. That can be examined in due time.

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

Jesus Fucking Christ.

Its almost been a year since we fired Blatt.

In the meantime, we have won a FUCKING NBA CHAMPIONSHIP. The team's chemistry is off the charts. Our three best players are playing how we imagined them to be playing when we got them initially. YET we are still talking about Blatt?

Seriously guys. Do we need to bring in Blatt everytime there is a discussion about Ty?

Blatt is gone. Whatever may be the reasons, things didn't pan out as we had hoped.

That doesn't make Blatt a bad coach. He was and is a good coach. May be just the right one for us.

But that's what I was saying.. I didn't intend to make this convo so damn long. I don't even remember why we brought up this conversation.
All I was saying is that Blatt would have been a champion also if it wasn't for the freak injury of Kyrie. That's it.
It's undeniable that Lue is better for this team, that's it.