Andre Drummond

[sam_slam911]

But that's still a problem. It doesn't do you any good to be 275 and strong as an ox if you don't intend to throw that weight around down low. And no matter how agile he is for a 275 lb guy, he's going to be outquicked by guys that are 50 lbs lighter.

What we are not hearing scouts, media, or even from Drummond himself is that he wants to dominate down low. Shaq enjoyed punishing people and using his strength, and without that mindset he'd never have been as dominant as he was.

I don't doubt that Drummond's a high character kid. Seems like a very nice guy, and I think he'll work fairly hard. But the only thing that makes him a risk worth taking that high is the prospect that you might end up with a monster, and Drummond doesn't seem to want to be that monster. And if he's not going to be that, the tremendous upside doesn't exist.

Who says he doesn't want to throw his weight down low? As I said, take nothing from the interviews with the media; they reflect nothing but microphone skills. But if he has other skills which he did not get to show off this year, why would you not mention them as much as possible before the draft? Instead of talking about the uncreative position he was placed in at UConn where he was expected to make plays for himself down low with incredibly raw offensive post moves.

From my standpoint, his game sits in more of the Amare Stoudemire type. Attacking from the elbows like he did in highschool. Once he grows into his body mentally then he can expand his post game like Dwight Howard has.

 

[B3team]

I don't think it has anything to do with the rule changes. The only reason it isn't a traditional big man league anymore is that there are so few traditional big men. Most guys leave school too early to develop the kind of sophisticated back to the basket game it takes to be that traditional big man. But there's nothing in the game preventing any player who does have those skills from being successful. So now, "traditional big men" seem more limited to athletic freaks like Howard, who can use their strength and quickness even if they don't have Kevin McHale skills. And that's really what makes Drummond so intriguing. He may be bigger, stronger, and quicker than Howard, and if he had that mindset to use that down low, would be something that many teams just don't know how to handle. He'd be a horrible mismatch requiring double-teams, etc.

But he's got to want to be that kind of guy. If the Cavs don't get that out of the interviews, I'd definitely pass, at least at No. 4.

I think what catfish meant by saying "it isn't a traditional big man league anymore" is not that there are specific rules that prevent a bigman from doing something, but rather, the current rules give advantages to perimeter players. More specifically, the handcheck rule. Handchecking being illegal clearly is more adventagious to wing players. While developing a game plan in todays NBA, it makes sense to have the ball in the hands of dynamic wing players as much as possible so you draw more fouls, create penetration for drive and kicks, and control pace/flow of game. In the past, these perimeter players were much more containable because of the rules.

 

[TitleTown]

It's not simplistic. It's realistic. There's always a trade off between draft position, talent, upside and risks. In almost every draft you have to deal with the fact that the player with the most upside may not be the player with the fewest risks. Do you identify, accept, and come up with a plan to deal with those risks and perhaps end up with a great player? Or do you run from those risks, and likely end up with a good player.

If we were picking at 6 I'd agree with you. But there are players with a very high upside, who have less risk, and will be available at #4.

That said, if Grant decides that Drummond at #4 is worth the risk, then I will be VERY excited about him as a Cav. But based on my limited information, I don't see him as worth the risk right now compared to the other high potential players who could possibly be available at #4.

 

[catfish]

I think what catfish meant by saying "it isn't a traditional big man league anymore" is not that there are specific rules that prevent a bigman from doing something, but rather, the current rules give advantages to perimeter players. More specifically, the handcheck rule. Handchecking being illegal clearly is more adventagious to wing players. While developing a game plan in todays NBA, it makes sense to have the ball in the hands of dynamic wing players as much as possible so you draw more fouls, create penetration for drive and kicks, and control pace/flow of game. In the past, these perimeter players were much more containable because of the rules.

If you read wine and gold's post in the other thread I think he is thinking along the same lines as myself. While you can argue who should be the 2 that we select at 7 I think it would be very much to our advantage to get another wing scorer with that pick. You only have to look at the NBA playoffs in which there was no dominant big man on any of the teams in the late rounds and I dont think Duncan is a dominat big man to see that you need elite wings who can get to spots on the floor to win. We have an opportunity with this draft to assemble a core and we should do it.

 

[Spencer Hawes]

If you read wine and gold's post in the other thread I think he is thinking along the same lines as myself. While you can argue who should be the 2 that we select at 7 I think it would be very much to our advantage to get another wing scorer with that pick. You only have to look at the NBA playoffs in which there was no dominant big man on any of the teams in the late rounds and I dont think Duncan is a dominat big man to see that you need elite wings who can get to spots on the floor to win. We have an opportunity with this draft to assemble a core and we should do it.

Duncan is only 75 years old and won 5 championships during his prime. I guess that's not enough domination for you? Last I checked, Dallas won a ship and Chandler was the one controlling the paint. Don't forget the Bynum/Gasol duo that won two ships and the year KG won his when he was a dominant post defender.

But hey, let's forget the model that is tried and true and model our rebuild with the "in style" right now.

 

[Jon]

If we were picking at 6 I'd agree with you. But there are players with a very high upside, who have less risk, and will be available at #4.

That said, if Grant decides that Drummond at #4 is worth the risk, then I will be VERY excited about him as a Cav. But based on my limited information, I don't see him as worth the risk right now compared to the other high potential players who could possibly be available at #4.

That's fine. You don't have to like Drummond in the top-5 or even the top-30, but the point of the thread is to discuss his pros and cons.

Part of that is weighing his upside .vs. his downside .vs. our chances of helping him get where he needs to be. GM's screwup reaching in the draft on bigs all the time, and by no means do I want the Cavs to join that list; but neither do I want to dismiss the fact that these guys can payoff as well.

btw, I do feel rule changes have deprecated traditional post play, and athleticism and conditioning have negated many of the advantages of height, strength, and finesse. Team defensive schemes have also made it very costly to just put a big immobile 7-footer in the paint.

I'm sure there are plenty of bigs around the world who's post moves would make Kevin McHale proud ... but that alone doesn't qualify them to play in the NBA.

 

[Spencer Hawes]

That's fine. You don't have to like Drummond in the top-5 or even the top-30, but the point of the thread is to discuss his pros and cons.

Part of that is weighing his upside .vs. his downside .vs. our chances of helping him get where he needs to be. GM's screwup reaching in the draft on bigs all the time, and by no means do I want the Cavs to join that list; but neither do I want to dismiss the fact that these guys can payoff as well.

btw, I do feel rule changes have deprecated traditional post play, and athleticism and conditioning have negated many of the advantages of height, strength, and finesse. Team defensive schemes have also made it very costly to just put a big immobile 7-footer in the paint.

I'm sure there are plenty of bigs around the world who's post moves would make Kevin McHale proud ... but that alone doesn't qualify them to play in the NBA.

Mobile big men who can guard the rim, that's always the anchor in any championship contending team. Drummond has the best tools of any prospect in this and many other drafts to make it happen. Will he maximize his potential? That's the risk that Grant has to assess. If we do select Drummond and pair him with Tristan, one of those bastards better develop a reliable jumper because you're talking about 2 bigs who can potentially be a shut down pair defensively.

 

[Jon]

Mobile big men who can guard the rim, that's always the anchor in any championship contending team. Drummond has the best tools of any prospect in this and many other drafts to make it happen. Will he maximize his potential? That's the risk that Grant has to assess. If we do select Drummond and pair him with Tristan, one of those bastards better develop a reliable jumper because you're talking about 2 bigs who can potentially be a shut down pair defensively.

I'm actually not that fond of bigs shooting J's because so few are efficient at it, but hopefully Tristan (and Drummond if we draft him) can improve their J to the point that if their opponent completely ignores them, that they can knock it down. It's certainly nothing we can take for granted, but Andy and JJ both made a lot of progress in that area.

There are also plays that can be run that will keep a defender sticking closer. For instance, if an ignored big simply sets a solid screen for one of the shooters on the team ... and the on the ball defender can't fight through the screen, and the opposing big is too far away to help ... then you've just created a wide open shot for someone who can actually shoot.

Anyway, I wouldn't be wasting much time pondering Drummond if there was a better all-around prospect, but even the supposed shooters (Beal & Barnes) don't actually shoot all that well. They'll need to improve too if they're going to be anything special in the NBA - and one of the most interesting prospects (MKG) has even farther to go.

 

[Douglar]

2012 NBA Draft - Workout buzz on top prospects - ESPN

6. Andre Drummond

Workouts: Kings (6/14), Blazers (6/16), Wizards (6/18), Cavs (6/20), Bobcats (6/22)

Analysis: Drummond is the odd man out trying to work his way into the top five. I'm told that his upcoming workout in Charlotte will be his last, though he might have to revise that if he believes the Kings and Blazers might pass on him at No. 5 and No. 6.

I've heard he had strong workouts in Sacramento and Portland, and I've also heard that the Wizards and Cavs workouts weren't as strong. Sports Illustrated's Sam Amick reported that Robinson destroyed Drummond in the Cavs workout. I haven't heard it described that strongly, but I do think Robinson was considerably more aggressive, and thus much better. Given the age difference, experience gap and different styles, you could expect that, however.

They'll have a chance to go head-to-head again in Charlotte. I do think Drummond gets a long look at No. 6 if he falls to the Blazers. However, it's not a guarantee. The team is also high on Damian Lillard and Dion Waiters and could decide they need a scoring guard over a big man project. If he slides past there, the Warriors and Pistons are his next two places to fall.

 

[randymoss1881]

drummond is playing on espnu (only watching college games and draft untill the season). i love his defense and composre

 

[sailfish]

Chad Ford's latest tweet seems to imply that Drummond is sliding:

Chad Ford ‏@chadfordinsider
Could Anthony Davis & Andre Drummond end up as teammates in New Orleans. I'm saying there's a chance … http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/blog/_/name/nba_draft/id/8084577/2012-nba-draft-royce-white-draft-promise-plus-rumors (insider)

 

[randymoss1881]

Chad Ford's latest tweet seems to imply that Drummond is sliding:

if that happens and they both live up to there potetial u could be looking at a dynasty.

 

[Spectre]

Chad Ford's latest tweet seems to imply that Drummond is sliding:

Chad Ford ‏@chadfordinsider
Could Anthony Davis & Andre Drummond end up as teammates in New Orleans. I'm saying there's a chance … 2012 NBA Draft - Royce White may have a draft promise, plus rumors - ESPN (insider)

If Drummond starts sliding into that area, we really need to find a way to move up to get him. Yes, he's a risk and a huge boom/bust guy but at that point we'll have already landed a wing and can afford to take a gamble with a 2nd pick. Given the slop that normally falls to the 9-10-11 range, I'd easily gamble on massive upside at a premium position with Drummond if we can find a trade partner.

 

[sailfish]

If Drummond starts sliding into that area, we really need to find a way to move up to get him. Yes, he's a risk and a huge boom/bust guy but at that point we'll have already landed a wing and can afford to take a gamble with a 2nd pick. Given the slop that normally falls to the 9-10-11 range, I'd easily gamble on massive upside at a premium position with Drummond if we can find a trade partner.

I'd love to find a way to grab Drummond.
Unfortunately, I just don't think we have what it takes to get another lottery pick. Most of those teams willing to trade are looking for a young player and we don't have any of those to trade. So, basically we're relegated to offering draft picks, but, unless we're willing to deal our 2013 1st, I don't see anything attractive enough to get other teams to bite.

 

[Triumph36]

If Drummond starts sliding into that area, we really need to find a way to move up to get him. Yes, he's a risk and a huge boom/bust guy but at that point we'll have already landed a wing and can afford to take a gamble with a 2nd pick. Given the slop that normally falls to the 9-10-11 range, I'd easily gamble on massive upside at a premium position with Drummond if we can find a trade partner.

I don't really see why this would be restricted to Drummond falling.

If the Cavs can get in the 8-11 range there aren't many potential deals I wouldn't like, even if Drummond isn't available there.