Let it all out: Guardians Edition

[sportscoach]

So you want Shaw back, eh?

I want someone better than Shaw, but also one that is willing to work with the young guys... I have been wanting one from the left side for a couple seasons now lol

 

[sportscoach]

I respectfully consider this a copout. Blake or Bryan in the pen make no difference with how an individual pitches.

The people who should help in this regard are called "coaches", @sportscoach

They make a way bigger impact than you believe... Stephan wouldn't be as effective as he is now without the veterans. There isn't any ifs ands or buts about that one. Asdrubal Cabrera credits Orlando Cabrera for helping him with his development and JRam credits Uribe in his. Bieber credits the likes of Kluber and the group for his and guys like Kipnis and Brantley credit Giambi for showing them the ropes and helping them develop...

You have pitching coaches and you have guys who have been through the ups and downs of playing everyday... Those are two different experiences and learning from both is the best way to develop players.

You go to a new job and everyone but the bosses are new and the bosses themselves have little floor experience, are you going to do your best job? What happens if you have some guys who have been there awhile instead that can and are willing to teach you. Would you be more effective afterwards?

Trust me it's not a copout at all and this is the venting thread anyways, but in all sincerity, we don't have any guys out in the pen who can lead. We don't have someone to keep guys on track mentally since there is no way these blown saves by Clase and the outings by Karinchak aren't eating at them. Coaches can do a lot, but most have little more than minor league experience. Guys who have actual experience with the ups and downs can show way more. This is almost to young of a roster overall. Plesac is our oldest pitcher... Karinchak has the most MLB experience in the pen.

Ps. No Bauer no pitching factory btw... players matter and honestly Bauer did help his team mates out with his knowledge and opinions...

 

[CDAV45]

I respectfully consider this a copout. Blake or Bryan in the pen make no difference with how an individual pitches.

The people who should help in this regard are called "coaches", @sportscoach

I've been telling him the exact same shit for months now. It's an unprovable theorum. If they added a "veteran setup man" and they continued to pitch poorly then we would just jump to "he's not the right veteran setup man" and that we should get another.

 

[CDAV45]

They make a way bigger impact than you believe... Stephan wouldn't be as effective as he is now without the veterans. There isn't any ifs ands or buts about that one. Asdrubal Cabrera credits Orlando Cabrera for helping him with his development and JRam credits Uribe in his. Bieber credits the likes of Kluber and the group for his and guys like Kipnis and Brantley credit Giambi for showing them the ropes and helping them develop...

You have pitching coaches and you have guys who have been through the ups and downs of playing everyday... Those are two different experiences and learning from both is the best way to develop players.

You go to a new job and everyone but the bosses are new and the bosses themselves have little floor experience, are you going to do your best job? What happens if you have some guys who have been there awhile instead that can and are willing to teach you. Would you be more effective afterwards?

Trust me it's not a copout at all and this is the venting thread anyways, but in all sincerity, we don't have any guys out in the pen who can lead. We don't have someone to keep guys on track mentally since there is no way these blown saves by Clase and the outings by Karinchak aren't eating at them. Coaches can do a lot, but most have little more than minor league experience. Guys who have actual experience with the ups and downs can show way more. This is almost to young of a roster overall. Plesac is our oldest pitcher... Karinchak has the most MLB experience in the pen.

Ps. No Bauer no pitching factory btw... players matter and honestly Bauer did help his team mates out with his knowledge and opinions...

No they don't and if they do then prove it. Stephan became effective after entering Cleveland's system, not because of some illedged veteran presence.

Can you point to one pitching coach that didn't pitch professionally? I'll wait.

It's a copout and you don't have a fucking clue about the leadership of anyone in the BP. My guess is that with the type of character a player has to have to even be on Cleveland's roster that leadership qualities are abundant.

Sometimes the unpredictability of baseball brings out the craziest ideas. Hell, I think they(those pitching poorly) should sleep with their heads at the foot of their beds tonight. That will realign their feng shui. That has as much validity as "needing a veteran setup guy".

 

[macbdog]

The team was as good as they were last year because Stephan, Karinchak and Clase were just about automatic last year. Not a good sign when two of them are scuffling.

 

[sportscoach]

No they don't and if they do then prove it. Stephan became effective after entering Cleveland's system, not because of some illedged veteran presence.

Can you point to one pitching coach that didn't pitch professionally? I'll wait.

It's a copout and you don't have a fucking clue about the leadership of anyone in the BP. My guess is that with the type of character a player has to have to even be on Cleveland's roster that leadership qualities are abundant.

Sometimes the unpredictability of baseball brings out the craziest ideas. Hell, I think they(those pitching poorly) should sleep with their heads at the foot of their beds tonight. That will realign their feng shui. That has as much validity as "needing a veteran setup guy".

If you don't believe me then so be it, but until they get an actual veteran pitcher out there, the bullpen is going to stink way worse than last season. I am done with this discussion and Stephan did state he credits Parker for his main pitch and not the coaches. Don't even worry about replying since arguing with you about this is talking to a brick wall and I am not going to reply even if you do. It's not a copout, since we really are too young of a roster and we need another veteran or two on it to help out these young guys...

 

[CDAV45]

If you don't believe me then so be it, but until they get an actual veteran pitcher out there, the bullpen is going to stink way worse than last season. I am done with this discussion and Stephan did state he credits Parker for his main pitch and not the coaches. Don't even worry about replying since arguing with you about this is talking to a brick wall and I am not going to reply even if you do. It's not a copout, since we really are too young of a roster and we need another veteran or two on it to help out these young guys...

This is the same BP we had last year minus Shaw. Whatever "veteran presence" he may have had should have rubbed off on these guys and carried over.

So if this roster is "too young" then what is the age cutoff. My friend wants to know so he can place his bets accordingly.

No, I don't believe you and every time you post it here then I'm going to express that I don't believe you. Just to get this straight, our BP has no chance of being good this season because they don't have a "veteran presence" in it? We'll revisit this in a couple of months after we test your theory.

 

[CBBI]

We need a veteran setup man out there with the young guys... we have no veteran pitchers out in the bullpen on this roster and it's showing...

I love ya coach, but this is just goofy nonsense.

 

[MadThinker88]

If you don't believe me then so be it, but until they get an actual veteran pitcher out there, the bullpen is going to stink way worse than last season. I am done with this discussion and Stephan did state he credits Parker for his main pitch and not the coaches. Don't even worry about replying since arguing with you about this is talking to a brick wall and I am not going to reply even if you do. It's not a copout, since we really are too young of a roster and we need another veteran or two on it to help out these young guys...

@sportscoach

If have to agree with CBBI... There are only 2 "rookie" arms in the CLE pen- Curry & Herrin.
The others (James K/ Stephan/ Clase/ Morgan/ de la Santos/ Hentges) have at least 1 season if not multiple years of being part of a MLB bullpen.

Bullpens tend to be fickle groups and the exact group of arms being massively effective 1 season could well be a gas can the next season.
IMHO, the bullpen needs another effective arm out there. Person could be RH or LH, rookie or vet.
Just another effective arm is needed so it isn't the same 3 or 4 guys being called upon in nearly every single game.

 

[sportscoach]

I just personally believe you need a veteran leader in a group that helps the younger guys and we lack that in the bullpen for sure. I also would like a veteran player, with a lot of playoff experience and good clubhouse leadership.

That's just what I believe... JRam is fine as a leader, but he's still younger as a person and honestly is more aggressive than calm at times... I feel like a team hits all cylinders when they have someone who can keep everyone calm through the good and bad times.

 

[CDAV45]

I just personally believe you need a veteran leader in a group that helps the younger guys and we lack that in the bullpen for sure. I also would like a veteran player, with a lot of playoff experience and good clubhouse leadership.

That's just what I believe... JRam is fine as a leader, but he's still younger as a person and honestly is more aggressive than calm at times... I feel like a team hits all cylinders when they have someone who can keep everyone calm through the good and bad times.

Isn't that what Tito and his staff are known for?

 

[CBBI]

I just personally believe you need a veteran leader in a group that helps the younger guys and we lack that in the bullpen for sure. I also would like a veteran player, with a lot of playoff experience and good clubhouse leadership.

That's just what I believe... JRam is fine as a leader, but he's still younger as a person and honestly is more aggressive than calm at times... I feel like a team hits all cylinders when they have someone who can keep everyone calm through the good and bad times.

So are you suggesting Bryan Shaw's presence in the pen last year is why the pen was good? Because he's the only guy who isn't here that was here last year.

And obviously you know how ridiculous that sounds, right?

 

[CDAV45]

So are you suggesting Bryan Shaw's presence in the pen last year is why the pen was good? Because he's the only guy who isn't here that was here last year.

And obviously you know how ridiculous that sounds, right?

Coach likes the idea of a veteran in the mix. Where he and I differ is that I think there is already good leadership qualities throughout the BP and clubhouse. It's engrained in the culture and deliberately done. Having a veteran that doesn't perform very well(Shaw in 2022) has no value IMO, but a veteran than is still on top of his game is another story. Mostly due to his ability to perform.

 

[Arketebel]

Two teams each have 4 hits.

One team scores 6 runs.

The other scores zero.

Fuck math.

 

[sportscoach]

Two teams each have 4 hits.

One team scores 6 runs.

The other scores zero.

Fuck math.

You are doing common core math! Lol