Matt Barnes agrees to 2 yr/$3.2 mil w/ Orlando (pg. 34)

[ice cream man]

If we fight through the screens ... hmm ... we don't do that.

Why oh why do some of our guards/forwards not realize the importance of fighting through those screens. Andy can do the best job possible of cutting off the corner, but if the guard is slow to get back, it won't work.

Another message to some players: you go around screens, not through them.

One screen set (by anyone, not just Dwight), whether it was on or off ball was an adventure for our defense last year. I give a good deal of blame to MB, because some of that was due to us scrambling due to matchup problems.


How would I defend a Nelson/Howard pick and roll?
Either
1. Have Shaq show, make your rotations.
or
2. Have Shaq stay back, defend Dwight's cut to the hoop. Have Mo go underneath. I don't know much about Nelson, but hopefully he's not comfortable taking a 20 foot jumper early in the shot clock. At this point I like #2 better than #1.

 

[Jon]

2. Have Shaq stay back, defend Dwight's cut to the hoop. Have Mo go underneath. I don't know much about Nelson, but hopefully he's not comfortable taking a 20 foot jumper early in the shot clock. At this point I like #2 better than #1.

Unlike Alston, I've seen Nelson just destroy teams making that shot from inside or outside the 3pt line. Of course we're talking about a player who last season, 11 out of his 14 possible hotspots were colored red.

 

[KIisKing]

With people criticizing Shaq and his pick and roll defense, did you ever watch Z?

So our centers dont play well with the pick-and-roll but it wont effect our overall team defense.

The main thing is that is going to help us is Shaq can LIMIT Dwight Howard. By no means will he stop him but he can hold is ground and let or team actually have the chance of defending a 3-point shooter.


Nelson is nothing to take lightly.

 

[Jon]

With people criticizing Shaq and his pick and roll defense, did you ever watch Z?

This is really a Howard issue. There's a lot of guys that Andy, Ben, Joe, LeBron, etc, could rotate over and prevent from taking advantage of Z's long recovery time.

The Lakers present challenges for us inside, but different ones.

 

[Blue Magic]

That's a valid point, but I don't think anyone here is particularly referring to just the most recent games. The Cavs defense has given Vince fits, no matter if he was the only guy, or when we had to account for Jason Kidd, Richard Jefferson, and Vince, or Devin Harris and Vince. It was never about shutting down one guy. Also, we never once doubled him.

Trust me, there is no one in Cleveland that fears Vince Carter. If anything else, we were thrilled to hear he was Hedo's replacement in the offense.

Hedo was the one single entity that literally frightened every single one of us, purely because of how your offense fed off of him... He was basically a 6'10" point guard, running the P&R with other 6'10" guys, looking for 3 other guys that could hit the 3 as well.

You guys no longer have that. Sure Vince is a scorer, but the P&R will now be run by Jameer Nelson who, while he's a great player, is an entire foot shorter, and now he has one less 3 point shooter to look for as Bass cannot shoot the 3.

That may not sound like a huge change to you guys, and it might not be, but your team actually now falls prey right into the Cavs stellar "shrink the floor" defense. That didn't work last year, but now it will. We have lost nearly all of our need for double teams against your players, and are now facing a team that can be stopped by our in-house defense.

But like you said, we'll see once we play!

True. That's all valid opinions and all we can do is wait and see . I certainly cant attest to the history between you guys and Vince because I certainly havent followed it as closely as i'm sure all of you guys have.

With that said, as for the Bass signing, I think that we got him to help us slow down the bigger and more physically imposing PF's like the KG's and the Pau Gasols and the TD's of the world. That was a big flaw for us as you can see how LA exposed us in the Finals . Bass was simply to allow us to match up with those other teams, but I think if we wanted to play Cleveland with a finnesse approach like we did last year and spread the floor, we would likely see more doses of Meer/VC/Shard/Anderson/Dwight type of line-up. Or maybe we would slide Shard up and play more with Pietrus/Barnes/JJ @ the two.

I dont know really, it's just all assumptions at this point, but it's gonna be tough for us to rely on small ball to beat you guys anymore considering that you've brought in better length and depth on the wings to counter it. I think we both match-up fairly even at this point, to be honest.

That's true, and it's not true at the same time. Even though we played horribly against you guys, our starting lineup actually paced with you guys for most of the series, and we were up big in most games, especially early on.

Our biggest problem was our bench. We got absolutely NOTHING out of them, whereas Pietrus single handedly mopped the floor with them. That problem no longer exists. 3 of our 4 bench players are gone from last year, leaving the only effective one and adding 3 players who have been high caliber starting role players on playoff teams for the past few years.

Our bench in no way reflects what it was last year. In fact, the way our second units will be staggered and structured, they'll actually look more like our starting lineup from last year.

So in that sense, with our improved bench, the loss Hedo, and the addition of Shaq, nearly every matchup advantage you guys had has now either disappeared or leveled out.

True. You guys certainly filled in alot of holes from last year that we were able to exploit. Like I say, it would be difficult for us to rely on those same mismatches this year with the acquisitions of both Parker and Moon to throw at us. I think alot of Magic fans are sleeping on the Parker pick-up to be honest, that guy can be really dangerous and can light it up on any given night... Good distrubiting skills... The works... I think he will be bigger for you guys that Shaq(not literally ). Moon should be pretty sound defensively and can knock down the open jumpers. Amazing athlete. You guys bench definitely got better and is gonna give us some problems imo. I look forward to some good battles.

Long story short... The Cavs and Magic of the '09 playoffs are so not anything at all whatsoever like the Cavs and Magic of 09-10. We're both confident that our teams got better, but the true fact of the matter is, the way we match up against each other is totally and completely different. We'll see come November, right!?

True. These are gonna be two different teams next year. Cleveland got much deeper, a little bigger, and a little more versatile and athletic. Orlando also got a bit deeper, a bit bigger, and a bit more versatile. True, we lost some key elements but we also filled some of our own flaws that were exposed by other teams last season. We each have our own theories on how these moves will work out, so we'll have to wait and see who is right .... It will be a good year for basketball, for sure.

P.S. I never meant any disrespect, only looking for some quality debate as I hear this site has the best group of Cav fans. I see you guys as our rivals, likely for many years. If you dont want me be here than I can leave, though.

 

[Douglar]

Why oh why do some of our guards/forwards not realize the importance of fighting through those screens.

It's easier said than done. Some player's just don't have the strength or skill to do it.

Other's get hurt trying.

Others just don't want to because they got hurt in the past trying to do it:

 

[Benedict_Boozer]

^Ahhh J-Mac....seems like so long ago.

 

[doughboy90650]

It's easier said than done. Some player's just don't have the strength or skill to do it.

Other's get hurt trying.

Others just don't want to because they got hurt in the past trying to do it:

D.L. Hughley?

 

[Kongo Time]

Wow i remember when JMAC was a spark plug for this team on O. Haha how far we have come.

 

[Kongo Time]

Some of this was a post by a magic fan i will post my thoughts in bold.


Originally Posted by NerdoMcEinstein
Oh no....how will the Cavs deal with the likes of CJ Watson and Matt Barnes?!?!?

When did Hedo turn into LeBron? Hedo isn't near as good as people are making him look. 16.8 PPG 5.3 RPG 4.9 APG and 2.65 TO last season as compared to Vince Carter's 20.8 PPG 5.5 RPG 4.7 APG and 2.08 TO. Carter did better than Hedo in every statistical category except for assists, where Hedo has a 0.2 edge, so enough with this "Hedo is better than Vince" nonsense.No one said he is LeBron they just said that he was better then Vince and that is not saying alot. You can look at stats all day but at the end of the day the game is won on the court. The only reason why you guys scored last year was because of a mismatch and well Vince is not nearly the Mismatch that Hedo is. Also just so you do not get your hopes up your not getting the young Vince Carter every one seems to think he is. Lets see that Pick and roll now.

It does not matter how many times he has been an allstart he is older do not throw past stats out there like that.

Ryan Anderson was a rookie with barely 20 MPG last season, but if you're going to play that game, put Anderson's numbers next to Varejao's numbers. Varejao, in his 5th year in the league, with nearly 10 more minutes of playing time, only manages 1 more point per game, and an extra 2 and a half rebounds. Varejao is starting, Anderson isn't.Oh ok more stats. Like i said every one looks at stats they do not matter. Andy is a guy that does not show up on the stat sheet. He plays great D and its just stupid to try and compare the stats like that. Look Anderson is a good player that is who i wanted the cavs to pick up last year but at the same time he is still young, has no D and only has good stats because he could jack up shots on his old team.

Or it couldn't, it's too early to tell, even though if you want to get technical, we never traded Lee for Anderson. We traded part of a TPE we got from Dooling for Anderson; the Anderson trade and the VC trade were seperate. Did not know that but at the same time one trade does not happen without the other. Do not get to high on Anderson he is a bust.

wasn't the only team ready to pony up for Gortat's services. Ill trust an NBA GM's basketball knowledge as opposed to your "expertise". You do realize everyone wanted Mikki Moore one year and look at him now he sucks. Gortat and that guy from Paris that you call a player are bums. They had a good playoff run but at i mean come on even Boobie had a good playoff run but i am not going to count on him to be good this year.





I think you guys are counting on alot this season and i hate to break it to you the chances are slim they will work out. Bass sucks because when you guys put him in it destroys you the mismatch that made your team good last year. Ryan Anderson is not really a good Basketball player. Plays little D all he is is a soft 7 footer with a shot. Vince Carter is old and is now a mid range shoot thats about it. He has good stats but was on a team with little and had to do alot. Gortat is not really good either come on man he had one good playoff run your really going to count on that turning into something.

 

[Blue Magic]

Hope you guys dont mind if I counter some of these...

Some of this was a post by a magic fan i will post my thoughts in bold.


Originally Posted by NerdoMcEinstein
Oh no....how will the Cavs deal with the likes of CJ Watson and Matt Barnes?!?!?

When did Hedo turn into LeBron? Hedo isn't near as good as people are making him look. 16.8 PPG 5.3 RPG 4.9 APG and 2.65 TO last season as compared to Vince Carter's 20.8 PPG 5.5 RPG 4.7 APG and 2.08 TO. Carter did better than Hedo in every statistical category except for assists, where Hedo has a 0.2 edge, so enough with this "Hedo is better than Vince" nonsense.No one said he is LeBron they just said that he was better then Vince and that is not saying alot. You can look at stats all day but at the end of the day the game is won on the court. The only reason why you guys scored last year was because of a mismatch and well Vince is not nearly the Mismatch that Hedo is. Also just so you do not get your hopes up your not getting the young Vince Carter every one seems to think he is. Lets see that Pick and roll now.

It does not matter how many times he has been an allstart he is older do not throw past stats out there like that.

To think Hedo is a better mismatch is one thing but say he is better than Vince is completely another.... The #'s above arent just random 'past stats' or career stats, those were #'s from last season, so I dont see how they're not legit points or not valid to you... VC is still a more consistent and more explosive player than Hedo even at this age. He is the same age as Paul Pierce, and he looks like he still has more of his athleticism left than Pierce does... He certainly looks more athletic than even a current Hedo is.

As for Hedo's mismatch being the only way we scored, I would have to disagree with that. He rarely iso'd his man, he rarely posted up, he was a pick & roll player and a spot-up shooter(ie, he didnt even exploit the biggest advantages his size presented). That's pretty much why I dont think the 'losing a mismatch theory' holds as much water as some suggest. Hedo didnt play big! I think the main issue for Cleveland was their bigs inability to gaurd the pick & roll, more-so than Hedo being some elite and unstoppable pick & roll player. I dont see how your bigs get any relief or how their job gets any easier with VC and Meer coming in to run the pick & roll versus Hedo & Alston running it, but may be im just missing something here. Im not saying your wrong, I just dont see it myself.... We'll have to wait & see is all we can really do....

Ryan Anderson was a rookie with barely 20 MPG last season, but if you're going to play that game, put Anderson's numbers next to Varejao's numbers. Varejao, in his 5th year in the league, with nearly 10 more minutes of playing time, only manages 1 more point per game, and an extra 2 and a half rebounds. Varejao is starting, Anderson isn't.Oh ok more stats. Like i said every one looks at stats they do not matter. Andy is a guy that does not show up on the stat sheet. He plays great D and its just stupid to try and compare the stats like that. Look Anderson is a good player that is who i wanted the cavs to pick up last year but at the same time he is still young, has no D and only has good stats because he could jack up shots on his old team.

Stats do mean something, so we cant ignore them completey. One thing we can look at is efficiency. Things like PER, TS%, eFG%, can be helpful sometimes.

Ryan Anderson had a PER of 13.6, a TS% of 53.2, and a eFG% of 47.8..... Not bad for a Rookie and more perimeter oriented player. He wont be asked to be a hero or play big minutes right away, but he's a guy who can spread the floor @ the 4 spot and knock down jumpers. Dwight and Gortat usually have the paint on lock down when they're in, so his D isnt really THAT big of an issue on our team as it would be on most. If we really need D, we'd turn to a guy like Brandon Bass.

Varejao had a PER of 14.6, a TS% of 56.5, and an eFG% of 53.6. Better #'s across the board, but that's kind've what you expect from the more seasoned player. You could say Varejao is in the prime of his career right now and has had quite a few yrs to work and polish up his game. What you see right now is pretty much what you're gonna get, which is an energy/hustle guy. Anderson is more of a finesse guy. They're not really comparable players, and one was only a rookie.

Or it couldn't, it's too early to tell, even though if you want to get technical, we never traded Lee for Anderson. We traded part of a TPE we got from Dooling for Anderson; the Anderson trade and the VC trade were seperate. Did not know that but at the same time one trade does not happen without the other. Do not get to high on Anderson he is a bust.

It's too early to tell if he's a bust. I'll admit, I never really watched much of Anderson up in NJ, but he seems like he'll be a decent system guy for us(we'll have to see). I'm not gonna anoint him as some kind of savior or impact player next yr, but at the same time, I cant really deem him a bust. If his summer league play is any indication, he has some pretty decent potential in Orlando with the looks he'll be getting playing next to Dwight. The guy has a wet stroke(After all, summer league is summer league tho so It really doesnt mean much).

wasn't the only team ready to pony up for Gortat's services. Ill trust an NBA GM's basketball knowledge as opposed to your "expertise". You do realize everyone wanted Mikki Moore one year and look at him now he sucks. Gortat and that guy from Paris that you call a player are bums. They had a good playoff run but at i mean come on even Boobie had a good playoff run but i am not going to count on him to be good this year.

We're not counting on either of those guys to be a hero. They are all reserve's... We have our core group of guys in place, all those guys need to do is bring energy and defense off the bench, and any contributions on offense is a bonus. We have Meer, Vince, Shard, Dwight who we are counting on to get buckets. Only real question mark is the PF position right now and we have 3 guys battling for that spot in camp. Who ever gets it will have to be sharp or there will be someone else ready to step in.

I think you guys are counting on alot this season and i hate to break it to you the chances are slim they will work out. Bass sucks because when you guys put him in it destroys you the mismatch that made your team good last year. Ryan Anderson is not really a good Basketball player. Plays little D all he is is a soft 7 footer with a shot. Vince Carter is old and is now a mid range shoot thats about it. He has good stats but was on a team with little and had to do alot. Gortat is not really good either come on man he had one good playoff run your really going to count on that turning into something.

Wow, according to you VC and every role player on Orlando sucks.... :chuckles:

For Bass, he doesnt really destroy any mismatches, he just gives us a different look to throw out there. A more physical defensive PF, and he has an underrated mid-range game. This wasnt really a move made with you guys in mind, this was a move to help us against some of the other contenders like BOS & LA.... And our stupid system wasnt the only thing that made us good. You cant put all of the credit on the system, you have give credit to the coaches and players for maximizing what they have and for actually being, ummm good. Orlando has good players, and a good team. I'm not gonna say Cleveland is gonna suck, because they might play Lebron at the 4 some next year and they didnt do it last year... You guys would roast me because that sounds stupid... Just because a team gets more versatile and can play and matchup in more different ways doesnt mean that they're going to suck and fail playing in a slightly different system...

Anderson is a stretch 4. He's a guy who can allow us to play Lewis at the 3 and still do what we did last year offensively. Defensively he's a liability, but just like when Shard was at the 4 last yr, Dwight got his back and will have the lane on lock.

VC. Mother flippin VC? C'mon, you actin like this guy is a broken down bum already... This guy STILL has game bro. Dont be in denial, he still gas in the tank. He still has range. he if you really think he's broken down and that is you're argument, then all I can say is we'll see. I still think he's got at least 2 good yrs left in em, but we'll have to see.

Gortat's only been in the NBA 2 yrs... he only startied playing ball at 18 and he is a beast on D. Whenever he starts, he averages a double-double. He has good potential in this league in Center starved league and has gotten alot better each year. He seems to be hungry and genuinely wants to be good and works hard. I dont see how you can see soo much in Varejao and see soo little in Gortat... Gortat is a better defender V, when defense is V's only real 'strength' outside of 'hustle'. Just like V's PER, TS%, & eFG% were better than Ryan Anderson's.... Gortat's PER, TS%, & eFG% are all higher than V's. (PER:17.2, TS%:58.3, eFG%:57.5)How can you act like V is a decent NBA player & talent in one quote, and then act like Gortat is 'not very good' or not reliable in the next quote? It doesnt add up, It seems like havent watched these guy but rather you're just trying to speak your wishes and hopes into a reality... Gortat is every bit a quality player as V is. I just dont see how can dismiss every bench player on Orlando as not any good. Im perplexed.

 

[PatGarrity#1]

Blue Magic hit the nail on the head; the only thing I want to add to the "Vince is too old now" argument is that Shaq is 5 years older and has shown much more signs of wear and tear than Vince has to this point. Regardless, I think both players will have success as both are surrounded with a ton of talent, and they were both brought in to be compliments to better players(Dwight and LeBron).

Vince has never had the opportunity to play with a quality big man, let alone the current best center in the league, and each time Shaq has been paired with another great player (Kobe, D-Wade) he's turned it into a championship. At the end of the day, the only conclusion anyone can truthfully draw up is that damn, it is going to be exciting to watch the Cavs and the Magic play each other this season, and hopefully postseason as well.

 

[Lee]

As cavs fans, to sleep on the vince signing is dangerous. Vince is a better player right now than hedo. He is an upgrade. They also retained Gortat and upgraded with Bass. This is a better orlando magic team. 2 of our 3 big aquisitions are as old as vince or older. Delonte does match up better on vince, but he didnt do bad on hedo. Rashard is who really killed us, and they still have him to play pf. Its why we got moon, plus shaq helps on dwight.

Overall Orlando got better imo, but the cavs got much better. I am not sure if either team is done. Whate does orlando have left to spend or trade Orlando fans...anything? We still have the bae, ability to use a non bird exception to keep Joe SMith (not that he played against you guys for some unexplained reason) and the ability to pull a s&t with wally for a bad contract but someone that can help (elton brand fits this mold).

 

[D-westfan]

Hedo + Rashard PnR is what killed us last year.. much more comfortable with it being Jameer + Rashard or VC, because when our defender goes under, i'd rather it be someone thats no 7 inches taller than the dude defending him, shooting.. thats how theyre able to easily manufacture pts against us...

 

[Lee]

Hedo + Rashard PnR is what killed us last year.. much more comfortable with it being Jameer + Rashard or VC, because when our defender goes under, i'd rather it be someone thats no 7 inches taller than the dude defending him, shooting.. thats how theyre able to easily manufacture pts against us...

There is another point, Jameer is healthy, and Jameer is a much better player than skip to my lou. Its like they also upgraded the pg spot from the team that beat us last year. I just think you are puting way to much into turk and how much he brought. He is a good player, but vince is a more dynamic player over all, better scorer, historically he is also a good distributor. The heighth difference wasnt as big of a deal with turk. They also had issues because they had courtney lee and pieutrus in the mix, both taller wing players than we had. The heighth advantage extended well beyond turk. I think one of the biggest reasons we lost is MB flat out go out coached. We didnt adjust properly at all, we didnt use Joe what so ever, and he was affraid of Lebron getting into foul trouble so he tried to hide him on an easy assignment defensively insteady of having him lock down on Rashard.

The aquisition of moon and parker is huge, because it allows MB to stay in his comfort zone defensively when and if faced with a simular matchup issue in the post season again. MB does alot of things well, but making adjustments has never been one of them. This gives Brown more defensive tools to throw at multiple cmbo foward and wing players.

Personally I'd like to west become our 6th man because of the huge dynamics it would bring (ginobli like imo) but it looks like parker will fill that role. I think its a role parker could nicely fill also,....just think at this point west is the better player and we need that team leader on the bench too. But that is a different argument for a differnt thread, lol