What should the Cavs get for Anderson Varejao?

[TJ Detweiler]

Landry Fields. :boxer:

 

[Rich]

Landry Fields. :boxer:

AFter doing my whole Tyson Chandler post, I'm now become down about even this possibility.

 

[Rist77]

AFter doing my whole Tyson Chandler post, I'm now become down about even this possibility.

You got me sold. Andy sucks and isn't worth shit. He wasn't 3rd in the entire league in +/- last year. He hasn't shut down or slowed down every PF he has faced. (Nope Rashard Lewis is not a PF, that's why they played him there, it's called a mis-match). He didn't shut down and frustrate the hell out of PF's such as KG, David West, Zach Randolph, Amar'e Stoudemire, Lamar Odom, hell I think even Pau Gasol had a bad game against him for some reason. Lamarcus Aldridge, I could go on and on. Yeah he didn't do any of that stuff and no team wants him. We might as well trade him for a future second round pick and a bag of peanuts. Or better yet, cut him, just get him off the team because he has no value and no team wants him.

 

[Rich]

You got me sold. Andy sucks and isn't worth shit. He wasn't 3rd in the entire league in +/- last year. He hasn't shut down or slowed down every PF he has faced. (Nope Rashard Lewis is not a PF, that's why they played him there, it's called a mis-match). He didn't shut down and frustrate the hell out of PF's such as KG, David West, Zach Randolph, Amar'e Stoudemire, Lamar Odom, hell I think even Pau Gasol had a bad game against him for some reason. Lamarcus Aldridge, I could go on and on. Yeah he didn't do any of that stuff and no team wants him. We might as well trade him for a future second round pick and a bag of peanuts. Or better yet, cut him, just get him off the team because he has no value and no team wants him.

Didn't read my post at all did you? Is Anderson Varejao a more valuable player than Tyson Chandler? Is he of equal value? Is he of lesser value? Players who can't play offense will not bring in loads of talent.

Your counter-arguement is against something that I haven't even said. Show me where I said no team wants him? Show me where I said he sucks? You can't find it. I'm arguing against the notion that Andy is somehow worth lottery picks and is worth way more than Landry Fields/Gallinari/Chandler. Does that mean he sucks? No. Does that mean a team doesn't want him? No. I mean, not sure how you confused the two.

EDIT: And your Rashard Lewis line only validates what was said by me and Czvosec earlier: A team can get away with playing a small man at the PF in order to create a mis-match with Andy because ANdy cannot make them pay for it on the offensive end. A limitation.

 

[Rist77]

You did say you wouldn't even be sure if he was good enough for Landry Fields... C'mon Landry f*cking Fields. I would hope we would get more than just a first year second round defensive shooting guard for our most valuable asset in terms of players. That to me tells me you think he sucks, thats where I got that from.

As for Rashard Lewis, it's stupid we're even talking about it. But the whole Orlando team was a problem for us, with Dwight being 1, Hedo being 2, and then probably Rashard being 3. Andy and Rashard is not the reason we lost the series, it was because of everything.

And lastly, I do believe Andy is more valuable then Tyson Chandler. You can't use the Dallas trade this year because Chandler had his worst year last year and was injured most of the year and out of shape. Everybody thought he was done for, he has made a nice comeback and has become the starter, when that wasn't even the plan. It was suppose to be Haywood, so it's totally different situation.

I am not one of the people who thinks we will get lottery picks for him, I don't know who said that, but we should definetily get more than the shit the Knicks have or want to throw at us. I've also thought that a trade to San Antonio for Splitter and Hill would be of equal value. I would bet that if SA paired Andy with Duncan, with the rest of the team they have, they would win it all this year, and I firmly beleive that. So it would be worth giving up two young non all-star players for.

 

[Rich]

You did say you wouldn't even be sure if he was good enough for Landry Fields... C'mon Landry f*cking Fields. I would hope we would get more than just a first year second round defensive shooting guard for our most valuable asset in terms of players. That to me tells me you think he sucks, thats where I got that from.

As for Rashard Lewis, it's stupid we're even talking about it. But the whole Orlando team was a problem for us, with Dwight being 1, Hedo being 2, and then probably Rashard being 3. Andy and Rashard is not the reason we lost the series, it was because of everything.

And lastly, I do believe Andy is more valuable then Tyson Chandler. You can't use the Dallas trade this year because Chandler had his worst year last year and was injured most of the year and out of shape. Everybody thought he was done for, he has made a nice comeback and has become the starter, when that wasn't even the plan. It was suppose to be Haywood, so it's totally different situation.

I am not one of the people who thinks we will get lottery picks for him, I don't know who said that, but we should definetily get more than the shit the Knicks have or want to throw at us. I've also thought that a trade to San Antonio for Splitter and Hill would be of equal value. I would bet that if SA paired Andy with Duncan, with the rest of the team they have, they would win it all this year, and I firmly beleive that. So it would be worth giving up two young non all-star players for.

Tell me, would you have traded JJ Hickson last year for...Amir Johnson? Or Tyson Chandler? Most of the people here, including myself, would not have done so. Now tell me Landry Fields doesn't look like he has a far, far greater upside than Hickson does based on this year? I'm doubting the KNicks will be trading a rookie who is off to this type of start for anything less than a deal that brings them Carmelo.

Now, explain to me in what way Varejao is more valuable than Chandler? I mean, you can't just make that claim w/o some sort of reason as to why that is. I also said look at the previous trade for Chandler, when his stock was highest after his two best seasons in the league with the Hornets. They got...Emeka Okafor who was already in the middle of a monster contract. That's it. Now, maybe I'm wrong, but I'm in the group that thinks a deal including Chandler/Fields/Gallinari (not all three) is worth a great deal more than Okafor was...especially considering all three guys i just listed are far, far cheaper.

And yes, Andy is a our most valuable asset...but that is a sad thing for this organization. Just because he is this teams best player does not make him worth a boatload of talent in return like some people here think.

EDIT: And I like the deal of Spliiter/Hill for Varejao. It MIGHT be to steep, but not like some of the other things I've read.

 

[Rist77]

Tell me, would you have traded JJ Hickson last year for...Amir Johnson? Or Tyson Chandler? Most of the people here, including myself, would not have done so. Now tell me Landry Fields doesn't look like he has a far, far greater upside than Hickson does based on this year? I'm doubting the KNicks will be trading a rookie who is off to this type of start for anything less than a deal that brings them Carmelo.

Now, explain to me in what way Varejao is more valuable than Chandler? I mean, you can't just make that claim w/o some sort of reason as to why that is. I also said look at the previous trade for Chandler, when his stock was highest after his two best seasons in the league with the Hornets. They got...Emeka Okafor who was already in the middle of a monster contract. That's it. Now, maybe I'm wrong, but I'm in the group that thinks a deal including Chandler/Fields/Gallinari (not all three) is worth a great deal more than Okafor was...especially considering all three guys i just listed are far, far cheaper.

And yes, Andy is a our most valuable asset...but that is a sad thing for this organization. Just because he is this teams best player does not make him worth a boatload of talent in return like some people here think.

I mean Chandler is/was a decent player, but he does not have the same kind of reputation Andy does, he doesn't get under people's skin, make all the hustle plays, and do all the things that don't show up in the stat sheet. You can't just look at stats and compare Andy to anybody that has/had equal stats to him. Secondly Chandler is not as good of a defensive Center as Andy is a defensive PF. That's my opinion, but I think a lot of people would agree with me. Andy is known for his hustle and scrappiness and Chandler is not. IMO that is what makes Andy more valuable than Chandler when he was traded to Charlotte. Andy is no all-star, but without being an all-star, he is pretty damn valuable and I would have to believe that a lot of teams are calling or will call about a trade or his availablility. I don't neccessarily no if the same was true for Chandler. I hope I answered your question. It looks like we are going to probably have to agree to disagree on this. But right now, I gotta get some sleep.

 

[Zone]

Tyson Chandler. Go look at the awesome stuff Charlotte got for him. There is a guy who is more athletic, rebounds at a higher rate, and is an elite defender. Also, he was on the final year of his deal, so he wasnt a cap eater. Go introduce yourselves to that sick deal charlotte got.

Charlotte was looking for a way to avoid paying the Luxury Tax. That's why he was dealt for Dampier's contract. So yes, he was a cap eater for CHA. Not too sure those things exist in Dallas.

The Bobcats moved Chandler to accomplish a financial goal. There was no basketball sense to what they did. I don't think the Cavs are in that same mindset or financial situation. IMO, comparing the 2 isn't reasonable.

Now, maybe you think it's unfair to compare Varejao to a C. Great, so who would you like to compare him to in terms of PFs? The market for PFs who have little to no offensive game is quite small. However, there is one out there who specializes in defense and rebounding with next to no offensive game to speak of, and his stats are quite comparable to Andy's...Amir Johnson. EDIT: Forgot to add, PFs who have actually peaked and there isn't really any room for improvement beyond this point.

Who's to say which player has peaked and which has not? I'd take AV 10/10 times given the choice between him and Amir Johnson. It appears you're using players stats, and then adding in your own qualifiers

Here is the simple fact of the matter. If Andy is a C, then he doesn't possess the shot-blocking abilities that the elite defensive Cs do. So, if you feel like calling him a PF, then he doesn't possess NEARLY the offensive skill-set to demand what it is you guys think he should demand on the trade market.

Why does he have to have a defined position? He's a very skilled, 6-11 250lb big man. Part of his value is his versatility.

Again, go look at the Tyson Chandler and see if you can convince yourselves that Varejao commans a higher market than does Chandler. Maybe the Bobcats FO is stupid (they are). But still, look at what Chandler was traded for pre- Charlotte. Emeka Okafor. That's it. A non-allstar C with the same basic skill-set. This is what players with no offensive game to speak of command on the trade market. You might hate to hear it, but that's the way it is.

Jeff Bower, the Hornet's GM at the time of the trade, LOVED Emeka Okafor (which still confuses me, but oh well...). He didn't seem to like Chandler as much. Previous to the CHA deal, he'd already tried to trade Chandler to OKC for Joe Smith, Chris Wilcox, and the rights to Devon Hardin at the deadline. It was rescinded when Chadler couldn't pass his physical.

And this brings up another point in comparing Tyson Chandler and AV: injuries and the ability to play through them. Chandler is always dinged up, although he been extremely durable this year for the Mavericks. Guess that's what being in a contract year will do to a guy...

EDIT: If you still are out thinking Varejao is worth, not only young, cheap talent that is already proving itslef (like Chandler/Fields) + Draft picks + Cap relief....look at what Minnesota got back for Jefferson. Two late first round picks and Kosta Koufos. Yet we have people here talking lottery picks, talking like Fields/Chandler aren't nearly enough?

The truth is usually in the middle, and it depends on what the Front Office is looking to accomplish by trading AV.

Are you looking to save money and get a big expiring? It will lessen what we get

Are you looking to get a player back that AV's new team wants to hold onto? May have to lessen our expectations on other assets that team is willing to trade

 

[Triumph36]

I'm not even sure I would take Cousins unless we are supremely confident in Byron Scott's ability to knock the knucklehead out of him. The dude is completely out of control right now in Sacramento and he hasn't really even done anything. If people think J.J. is a handful ego-wise with little to show for it, they should take a peek at Sacramento's debacle right now.

He is a mess right now but to be fair it seems their whole locker room is like that. Who knows how he'd act in a different situation. It just seems like a risk a team like Cleveland needs to take IMO. If he gets back on track, which is obviously not out of the realm of possibility, it'd be a steal for the Cavs and really expedite the rebuilding process.

That said I don't think the Kings do it for obvious reasons...

Rich, I think you are underestimating Varejao's worth

He will be a hot commodity if he hits the trade market. Most contending teams will want him. And there's no way Varejao gets traded without us getting better than a "decent" return. The Cavs would just as soon keep him instead of trading him for something marginal.

OKC and Portland were big players last time he was a free agent. NY has already been reported to have interest, as has Miami. San Antonio has has been rumored to have interest. I'm sure there are others, every team has a spot for a guy like Varejao.

That's nice but most contending teams either have crap to offer or too much to offer. The Knicks aren't going to break the bank for AV when they could be trading for Melo or signing him in the off-season. OKC (unless I am overestimating the skill of their front office) won't either because they are looking long-term. Miami obviously doesn't have the pieces. San Antonio is meh...I think the Cavs need to go as young as possible when trading him.

The thing about AV is that the teams with the best pieces (ie: young, rebuilding-esque teams) have little to no use for him. Ultimately I think he stays because the Cavs front office will severely overestimate his value.

 

[staycoolbruh]

Landry Fields and Wilson Chandler, 2nd round pick for Boobie and AV!

Then we need a center!

 

[Rich]

Charlotte was looking for a way to avoid paying the Luxury Tax. That's why he was dealt for Dampier's contract. So yes, he was a cap eater for CHA. Not too sure those things exist in Dallas.

The Bobcats moved Chandler to accomplish a financial goal. There was no basketball sense to what they did. I don't think the Cavs are in that same mindset or financial situation. IMO, comparing the 2 isn't reasonable.




Who's to say which player has peaked and which has not? I'd take AV 10/10 times given the choice between him and Amir Johnson. It appears you're using players stats, and then adding in your own qualifiers




Why does he have to have a defined position? He's a very skilled, 6-11 250lb big man. Part of his value is his versatility.




Jeff Bower, the Hornet's GM at the time of the trade, LOVED Emeka Okafor (which still confuses me, but oh well...). He didn't seem to like Chandler as much. Previous to the CHA deal, he'd already tried to trade Chandler to OKC for Joe Smith, Chris Wilcox, and the rights to Devon Hardin at the deadline. It was rescinded when Chadler couldn't pass his physical.

And this brings up another point in comparing Tyson Chandler and AV: injuries and the ability to play through them. Chandler is always dinged up, although he been extremely durable this year for the Mavericks. Guess that's what being in a contract year will do to a guy...




The truth is usually in the middle, and it depends on what the Front Office is looking to accomplish by trading AV.

Are you looking to save money and get a big expiring? It will lessen what we get

Are you looking to get a player back that AV's new team wants to hold onto? May have to lessen our expectations on other assets that team is willing to trade

I use Amir Johnson's stats to simply point out what Anderson Varejao is and what he isn't. No cavs fan wants to actually think of Varejao as Amir Johnson #2, but ultimately that is what he is. Is that bad? No. Those two guys have very nice skill-sets for certain teams. The point is, who out there is breaking the bank for Amir Johnson? No one. Even if Varejao is a better version, it isn't by nearly enough to bring in grade A. Talent and/or high draft picks for him.

As for Varejao having a unique skillset, true. However, what one person thinks is unique another can think of as limited. As outlined in posts above, the fact that he is 6-11/7 feet but can't block shots AND can't score the ball in any meaningful way can devalue his trade worth tremendously. If you are going to be a defensive big man, it would be preferrable if you could block shots. If you are going to be a big man who can't really block shots, it sure would be nice if you could space the floor. When you play Andy at PF, you basically have a clogged lane or man that's just roaming off of him. Playing him at the 4 makes it hard to play offense with most centers in the league.

 

[Adam]

I think most teams are aware that most of AV's value is not in his stats

 

[Rich]

I think most teams are aware that most of AV's value is not in his stats

Right, his value is what most other energy players value is.

Someone needs to find an example of a team giving up something serious in return for an energy big man. You simply won't find it.

 

[Adam]

Right, his value is what most other energy players value is.

Someone needs to find an example of a team giving up something serious in return for an energy big man. You simply won't find it.

respectfully, i disagree. To make a team a force defensively you need a mobile big who is versatile and can guard the pick and roll and inside. Just look at the effect chandler has had in dallas.

If i was GM of a team with talent but lacking that inside toughness Andy would be a player who would be worth looking at.

We'll wait and see what happens in the offseason.

 

[mAo_mAo]

Every contender needs someone like Varejao. The Bulls had Rodman,The bad boys pistons had Laimbeer, the new era Pistons had their Ben Wallace, The Lakers had Trevor Ariza and now Artest, Spurs had Bruce Bowen and even the Big 3 in Boston had an Anchor of a defender not only in KG but in Perkins whose absence cost them the title last year.

If Washington got a young prospect, an expiring and a 2nd round pick for Jamison then we could probably do better on a deal with Varejao.