Trade Deadline // 2023

[DCTribefan]

When we traded Kluber, we just got some kid that everybody said - WHO?
Now that kid is an All-Star closer.

When we traded Lindor, I was a little miffed that we had to include Cookie.
We got back some guys I wasn't too familiar with. But one of those guys is a foundational piece now.
I tend to give our FO the benefit of the doubt in evaluating trades.
Still, it would be good to get a RH power bat!

They tried to trade for a power bay but windmill Reyes flamed out.

 

[Gson]

It's clear there is a disconnect between those that believe 2023 is the year and those that believe 2023 is a primer on what is coming in 2024 & beyond.. The "beyonders" are more likely to be correct.. there just isn't enough offense, consistent bullpen arms and starting pitching to make a serious run in 2023; especially given the age, experience and depth of the various areas of the club... Can they win the AL Central.. any one of four teams can.. & it would be rewarding to see the Guardians take it if for no other reason than we'd get second season experience....

End the Bro-mance... already..

Getting some middling SP like Blackburn to replace Bieber for inane reasons like the desperate need to coddle rookie starters from fantasized innings limits would only rise to the level of "okay" IF a power bat came with him.. Otherwise, it's stuffing good money down a RATHOLE... If getting that power bat's luggage carried by the "middling Bieber replacement", then "..that's the price you pay..." It would be better to take the money / resources paid to get Blackburn and set it on fire.. at least there could be a marshmallow roasted or some welcome warmth experienced..

Don't be fooled by a "four teams in three years" guy like Brent Rooker.. He is the only guy on the A's roster that does a small amount of damage, hence, his OBP & OPS is fueled by an unsustainable over 100 point walk rate.. This isn't the power bat that the statistics belie.. The fact that his defense is poorer than Spongebob's doesn't help his case..

The A's have two catching candidates that could be of interest.. but they'd only be available if the deal started with a guy like Gavin Williams.. This is a non-starter.. It's likely the reason why the Sean Murphy deal went away.. (we can't know...but we can posture like we do)..

There are other teams that can/should be engaged for a veteran hurler, a bat and/or for a current or future bona fide ML catcher.. The A's aren't it..

 

[BMAN]

They tried to trade for a power bay but windmill Reyes flamed out.

I was pumped to get him too.

 

[Damage]

It's clear there is a disconnect between those that believe 2023 is the year and those that believe 2023 is a primer on what is coming in 2024 & beyond.. The "beyonders" are more likely to be correct.. there just isn't enough offense, consistent bullpen arms and starting pitching to make a serious run in 2023; especially given the age, experience and depth of the various areas of the club... Can they win the AL Central.. any one of four teams can.. & it would be rewarding to see the Guardians take it if for no other reason than we'd get second season experience....

End the Bro-mance... already..

Getting some middling SP like Blackburn to replace Bieber for inane reasons like the desperate need to coddle rookie starters from fantasized innings limits would only rise to the level of "okay" IF a power bat came with him.. Otherwise, it's stuffing good money down a RATHOLE... If getting that power bat's luggage carried by the "middling Bieber replacement", then "..that's the price you pay..." It would be better to take the money / resources paid to get Blackburn and set it on fire.. at least there could be a marshmallow roasted or some welcome warmth experienced..

Don't be fooled by a "four teams in three years" guy like Brent Rooker.. He is the only guy on the A's roster that does a small amount of damage, hence, his OBP & OPS is fueled by an unsustainable over 100 point walk rate.. This isn't the power bat that the statistics belie.. The fact that his defense is poorer than Spongebob's doesn't help his case..

The A's have two catching candidates that could be of interest.. but they'd only be available if the deal started with a guy like Gavin Williams.. This is a non-starter.. It's likely the reason why the Sean Murphy deal went away.. (we can't know...but we can posture like we do)..

There are other teams that can/should be engaged for a veteran hurler, a bat and/or for a current or future bona fide ML catcher.. The A's aren't it..

This is a pretty weird thing to say given the track record of young pitchers (see Bay, Tampa with Rasmussen, Flemming and Glasnow) injuring their arms due to excessive innings. It's not coddling. Guys in 2023 are throwing cartoonishly high spin rates, MPH and arm angles compared to the past.

 

[33Y0]

This is a pretty weird thing to say given the track record of young pitchers (see Bay, Tampa with Rasmussen, Flemming and Glasnow) injuring their arms due to excessive innings. It's not coddling. Guys in 2023 are throwing cartoonishly high spin rates, MPH and arm angles compared to the past.

Glasnow with excessive innings???

IP per year in MLB career: 23.1, 62.0, 111.2, 60.2, 57.1, 88.0, 6.2, 41.2. If you look at his minor league career: 38.1, 111.1, 124.1, 109.1, 116.2, and 93.1.

Same really for Rasmussen..

MLB career: 15.1, 76.0, 146.0, and 44.2. MiLB career: 74.1 and 11.1.

By comparison, Gavin Williams threw 115.0 innings last year and this year between AAA and MLB, he's thrown 85.0. Bibee threw 132.2 last year and between AAA and MLB this year 85.1. Logan Allen threw 111.1 in his first year, 132.2 last year, and 82.2 so far this year between AAA and MLB.

I'm not sure your argument really stands up that Tampa is abusing their young pitchers any more than we are....

 

[sportscoach]

Glasnow with excessive innings???

IP per year in MLB career: 23.1, 62.0, 111.2, 60.2, 57.1, 88.0, 6.2, 41.2. If you look at his minor league career: 38.1, 111.1, 124.1, 109.1, 116.2, and 93.1.

Same really for Rasmussen..

MLB career: 15.1, 76.0, 146.0, and 44.2. MiLB career: 74.1 and 11.1.

By comparison, Gavin Williams threw 115.0 innings last year and this year between AAA and MLB, he's thrown 85.0. Bibee threw 132.2 last year and between AAA and MLB this year 85.1. Logan Allen threw 111.1 in his first year, 132.2 last year, and 82.2 so far this year between AAA and MLB.

I'm not sure your argument really stands up that Tampa is abusing their young pitchers any more than we are....

But he isn't wrong in the sense, you gotta be prudent when it comes to a young pitchers innings... They are going to have an innings limit placed on them this season more than likely...

 

[sportscoach]

It's clear there is a disconnect between those that believe 2023 is the year and those that believe 2023 is a primer on what is coming in 2024 & beyond.. The "beyonders" are more likely to be correct.. there just isn't enough offense, consistent bullpen arms and starting pitching to make a serious run in 2023; especially given the age, experience and depth of the various areas of the club... Can they win the AL Central.. any one of four teams can.. & it would be rewarding to see the Guardians take it if for no other reason than we'd get second season experience....

End the Bro-mance... already..

Getting some middling SP like Blackburn to replace Bieber for inane reasons like the desperate need to coddle rookie starters from fantasized innings limits would only rise to the level of "okay" IF a power bat came with him.. Otherwise, it's stuffing good money down a RATHOLE... If getting that power bat's luggage carried by the "middling Bieber replacement", then "..that's the price you pay..." It would be better to take the money / resources paid to get Blackburn and set it on fire.. at least there could be a marshmallow roasted or some welcome warmth experienced..

Don't be fooled by a "four teams in three years" guy like Brent Rooker.. He is the only guy on the A's roster that does a small amount of damage, hence, his OBP & OPS is fueled by an unsustainable over 100 point walk rate.. This isn't the power bat that the statistics belie.. The fact that his defense is poorer than Spongebob's doesn't help his case..

The A's have two catching candidates that could be of interest.. but they'd only be available if the deal started with a guy like Gavin Williams.. This is a non-starter.. It's likely the reason why the Sean Murphy deal went away.. (we can't know...but we can posture like we do)..

There are other teams that can/should be engaged for a veteran hurler, a bat and/or for a current or future bona fide ML catcher.. The A's aren't it..

Definitely no way I can agree with you here...

Cleveland's FO is going to find a way to get to the playoffs, with or without moving Bieber...

They are going to limit the innings of guys like Bibee, Allen and Williams...

If we trade Bieber, it's extremely likely they find another SP to help with the innings... Reason why I am mentioning Blackburn is cause of the price... He has two more years of control and could be had for 1-2 prospects more than likely... If you can get a decent SP thats due less than 2 million for blocked prospects, you do it...

Subtracting Bieber sucks... But getting a now piece plus a couple more pieces then getting a Blackburn for blocked players, gives you a way better overall roster long term, plus keeps you in contention for this season.

That is how this FO roles and does things... Yes this isn't a year they 100% "planned" a world series run, but spending 20+ million in the off season says, "We believe we can get to the playoffs"

In all honesty, I feel like, Bieber isn't getting moved unless they get the future 2/3 hole bat back in the deal. Don't be surprised to see a veteran SP come to Cleveland with or without keeping Bieber...

 

[ajz20]

You get the power bat we need back in the Bieber deal... Then since we can contend, you find a veteran SP to help down the stretch... Don't forget how young this team is and the fact all three likely will face some innings limits. You need someone else to help out. Hence why the two trades I have in mind...

I’m just not optimistic about a deep playoff run this year and have no desire to give up any decent prospects for a vet arm . I hope they do make a playoff run, but there are a ton of barriers . The staff is too young and you still have too many wholes in the lineup .

I also think the current farm system minus starting pitching is actually not that great at all. It’s pretty thin as hell in terms of future impact bats . They need a good trade to infuse some talent . Reading reviews of the draft ( it seems like it is nothing to get super excited about - although we won’t know for 4 to 5 years)

I

 

[Gson]

Glasnow with excessive innings???

IP per year in MLB career: 23.1, 62.0, 111.2, 60.2, 57.1, 88.0, 6.2, 41.2. If you look at his minor league career: 38.1, 111.1, 124.1, 109.1, 116.2, and 93.1.

Same really for Rasmussen..

MLB career: 15.1, 76.0, 146.0, and 44.2. MiLB career: 74.1 and 11.1.

By comparison, Gavin Williams threw 115.0 innings last year and this year between AAA and MLB, he's thrown 85.0. Bibee threw 132.2 last year and between AAA and MLB this year 85.1. Logan Allen threw 111.1 in his first year, 132.2 last year, and 82.2 so far this year between AAA and MLB.

I'm not sure your argument really stands up that Tampa is abusing their young pitchers any more than we are....

or that there is any abuse at all.. it's dependent on each pitcher.. The guidelines that were once considered a "rule of thumb" doesn't apply individually... but can be looked at in this manner.. so.. if a pitcher has 132 IP's.. then the most he should see in the following season for Tanner Bibee, as the example is 158- 162..

There is some influence on stressful versus non-stressful innings pitched.. Undefined..

 

[petes999]

They are going to limit the innings of guys like Bibee, Allen and Williams...

I would have guessed that at first, especially if you only needed to piggy-back just 1 guy (the 5th opener for TB), but how do you do it for all 3?
If Rotation is,
Civale
Williams
Bieber
Bibee
Allen (until Quant/McK gets back -- if he does/they do)

If, they do a PiggyBack, how many relievers does Tito sacrifice to that cause? 1 in Curry? With a 8-man pen, you cannot factor in 2 (leaving 6 for all the other work without pushing them to the limit as well). If they do a Gaddis, Allen (when Quant gets back) or Herrin, as 2nd long-reliever, who do they send down out of Clase, Stephan, Santos, Morgan, Hentges, Sandlin, Karinchak (fill-in)? Do we believe Karinchak was sent down for rest of year in AAA or just until he got fixed?

Also, Curry is the innings leader in the pen (as he was a starter). But, when he has gone 2+ inning, he usually has had 3+ days off (pitch on 4th day or later every time-- as only twice has he gone 2.2 innings on June 30 and July 3 both days - on 3rd day and May 28 - 3.0 inning and June 1 - 1.0 inn on 3rd day). It is not like he can piggy-back Williams and be off a day before doing Bibee 2 days later.

Instead of 5.5 innings on average start for 17 starts (which is already low for a starter, making pen work), are you limiting starters to just 3 innings in a piggy-back? Thus, you save 2.5 innings for 1 starter each time through the rotation? (17 x 2.5 = 42.5 innings over 3 guys = 14 innings per guy overall ... not a huge change. Even if it is 20 innings as Quantrill sends Allen down in a few weeks if healthy (and everyone else stays healthy), is that the real difference? This is especially true for Williams who has to be limited the most since becoming a full starter in 2021.

So please explain how piggy backing will really limit the innings that much for a long, playoff run, as I just don't see it???

Note, with a bunch of young starters, the pen has been taxed as is already, even before more piggy-backing (why Curry has so many innings already - he kind of started it already informally). Only 8 times this year (2 for Civale and 6 for Bieber) has your core starters gone 7 or more innings to give pen a night off. Thus, your pen doesn't have a lot of room to pick up even more innings by just waving a magic wand and saying it works. (And Allen, Williams and Bibee have gone 7 innings once, but that is counter intuitive to piggy backing mantra to limit innings - by saying your starters can give the pen a night off every few days).

 

[33Y0]

But he isn't wrong in the sense, you gotta be prudent when it comes to a young pitchers innings... They are going to have an innings limit placed on them this season more than likely...

Oh absolutely, I still absolutely agree with the premise that you want to be careful with young arms. I just disagree that Tampa is doing anything different than we are really.

 

[Gson]

I would have guessed that at first, especially if you only needed to piggy-back just 1 guy (the 5th opener for TB), but how do you do it for all 3?
If Rotation is,
Civale
Williams
Bieber
Bibee
Allen (until Quant/McK gets back -- if he does/they do)

If, they do a PiggyBack, how many relievers does Tito sacrifice to that cause? 1 in Curry? With a 8-man pen, you cannot factor in 2 (leaving 6 for all the other work without pushing them to the limit as well). If they do a Gaddis, Allen (when Quant gets back) or Herrin, as 2nd long-reliever, who do they send down out of Clase, Stephan, Santos, Morgan, Hentges, Sandlin, Karinchak (fill-in)? Do we believe Karinchak was sent down for rest of year in AAA or just until he got fixed?

Also, Curry is the innings leader in the pen (as he was a starter). But, when he has gone 2+ inning, he usually has had 3+ days off (pitch on 4th day or later every time-- as only twice has he gone 2.2 innings on June 30 and July 3 both days - on 3rd day and May 28 - 3.0 inning and June 1 - 1.0 inn on 3rd day). It is not like he can piggy-back Williams and be off a day before doing Bibee 2 days later.

Instead of 5.5 innings on average start for 17 starts (which is already low for a starter, making pen work), are you limiting starters to just 3 innings in a piggy-back? Thus, you save 2.5 innings for 1 starter each time through the rotation? (17 x 2.5 = 42.5 innings over 3 guys = 14 innings per guy overall ... not a huge change. Even if it is 20 innings as Quantrill sends Allen down in a few weeks if healthy (and everyone else stays healthy), is that the real difference? This is especially true for Williams who has to be limited the most since becoming a full starter in 2021.

So please explain how piggy backing will really limit the innings that much for a long, playoff run, as I just don't see it???

Note, with a bunch of young starters, the pen has been taxed as is already, even before more piggy-backing (why Curry has so many innings already - he kind of started it already informally). Only 8 times this year (2 for Civale and 6 for Bieber) has your core starters gone 7 or more innings to give pen a night off. Thus, your pen doesn't have a lot of room to pick up even more innings by just waving a magic wand and saying it works. (And Allen, Williams and Bibee have gone 7 innings once, but that is counter intuitive to piggy backing mantra to limit innings - by saying your starters can give the pen a night off every few days).

instead of by "innings pitched" in piggybacking.. it's by number of pitches.. A team has to have a group of RP's equal to the number of piggyback SP's that are accustomed to multiple innings pitched.. e.g. Xzavion Curry, Hunter Gaddis, Eli Morgan & Cody Morris, as examples..

Edit: Generally speaking.. Bulk RP's typically see their stuff "play up" in shorter stints..

 

[petes999]

instead of by "innings pitched" in piggybacking.. it's by number of pitches.. A team has to have a group of RP's equal to the number of piggyback SP's that are accustomed to multiple innings pitched.. e.g. Xzavion Curry, Hunter Gaddis, Eli Morgan & Cody Morris, as examples..

Edit: Generally speaking.. Bulk RP's typically see their stuff "play up" in shorter stints..

Fine ... pitches vs innings pitched -- as that is something I brought up before with Bibee (throwing 90+ on average in 5 innings it seems) that his innings are weighted heavier when reaching a "limit" per se.

Yet, the key is we can find enough relievers to go 2+ innings - 40+ pitches (and Morgan has only gone 31 pitches once this year - so not really in equation for 2+ innings eater). But, the question is, how many of these relievers can you fit into the current 8-pen model to significantly saving innings on 3 rookie starters by piggy backing 2 a week. Otherwise, my point was, piggy backing 1 starter a week (as Curry cannot be over taxed), is not going to have that big of an impact come playoffs on "innings" or pitch limits. And, if you do a Morris/Curry tandem piggyback on 2 rookie starters a week, you are taxing your other 6 relievers as Bieber nor Civale is your pen saver this year (going 7+ innings constantly).

 

[Gson]

Fine ... pitches vs innings pitched -- as that is something I brought up before with Bibee (throwing 90+ on average in 5 innings it seems) that his innings are weighted heavier when reaching a "limit" per se.

Yet, the key is we can find enough relievers to go 2+ innings - 40+ pitches (and Morgan has only gone 31 pitches once this year - so not really in equation for 2+ innings eater). But, the question is, how many of these relievers can you fit into the current 8-pen model to significantly saving innings on 3 rookie starters by piggy backing 2 a week. Otherwise, my point was, piggy backing 1 starter a week (as Curry cannot be over taxed), is not going to have that big of an impact come playoffs on "innings" or pitch limits. And, if you do a Morris/Curry tandem piggyback on 2 rookie starters a week, you are taxing your other 6 relievers as Bieber nor Civale is your pen saver this year (going 7+ innings constantly).

okay on the pitch numbers stuff..

Finding them.. easier said than down.. It is part of the reason MLB decided to change the # of bus rides to and from the minors (down to 5 times) as the Rays were above 25 pitchers used in a single year.. some approaching a half dozen promotions & demotions.. It gives the kids a taste of ML action.. without imposing overdue stress on them remaining in ML action..

There are not only 6 relievers.. there are 8.. and then another 20 or so that can be given a taste or two at the M L level. It's clear their ML clocks will start using this methodology, but, if they're not going to be long term Guardian players, who really cares?? Worry about today.. today.. tomorrow can wait..

As far as the number or piggybacks are presented.. as many as 10.. but not if two or three of the starters are able to go the archaic 5+ innings... So, it will be a hybrid.. perhaps two starters slots are covered by four pitchers... Any number of machinations can be used to cover these innings...

 

[Gson]

Here's another 'tidbit' that was heard:

"..."I do believe that the San Diego Padres could get hot and make some waves in the National League West. But if they don't, the sun is starting to set. If they don't have a good next couple of weeks, I wouldn't mind seeing the Yankees go out and get Juan Soto," Jeter said...."

I wonder how the Guardians can exploit the NYY greed in attempting to acquire Soto?