Zydrunas Ilgauskas - Looking into the slump

[7foot3]

Guy played roughly 24 minutes in each of the last two games and he hasn't hit a shot.. Literally flew with this team to Florida and contributed about as much as Delonte did offensively

I know scoring points is the name of the game, but there's a lot someone can do offensively without scoring. The Cavs are 8.5 points per 100 possessions better with Z on the court. He's struggled shooting the ball, but he's still helping out on that end of the court.

I think some of you guys are blind with your love for Z. Big men can decline fast, especially someone who it 7'3 and 34 years old. This is not a slump, this is the case where an NBA big man has lost it.

I'm not sure where you have proof of that, but I've always heard that its the little guys who decline fast. Z isn't reliant on his athleticism the way a 6' point guard is. Size doesn't go away, and shooting ability declines slowly. These are the biggest pluses of Z's game. I have to think that while he's no longer a star, he's still a solid NBA player.

 

[Green Lantern]

Yes, but the strange thing here is that usually it's the other stuff that falls off, not the the mid range jumper. Players don't usually forget how to shoot.

I actually think Z is having problems coming off the bench..he doesn't look at all comfortable..

 

[Thunder]

It's because he's not used to coming off the bench....he's not getting in a rhythm. He needs to go hard at shootaround like he said he used too...and MB should sub him in after like 5-6 mins....and let Shaq start the 2nd. And then Z back in for the last 4 mins of the 2nd with Bron and Mo.

 

[Pioneer10]

Z is reminding me a bit of Bill Cartwright in his Chicago years. Cartwright really was a shell of his former self by the time he got to the Bulls (his PER for those Chicago years was around 11 which is right around where Z is right now). Still Cartwright was valuable to them as he was able to defend some of the centers who Grant couldn't handle and occasionally they could go to him for that awkward turnaround jumpshot of his.

Z like Cartwright is going to be an accessory. He's not going to be the main reason we win a title but like Cartwright he should be able to fill a role as Shaq isn't going to play even 30mpg and as a backup he can matchup against other teams backup. As I've stated time and time again this year are a unique team they have almost every imaginable roleplayer to throw around Lebron (even Shaq at this stage of his career is clearly a roleplayer). Because they fill niches that the other gusy don't really feel, guys like Z even though he like Cartwright is a shadow of his former self can still be valuable.

Still his value would rise exponentially if he could just hit a freakin jumpshot.

 

[Big O]

It is very clear to every Cavalier fan that veteran center, Zydrunas Ilgauskas is struggling with his shot. You can be a fan of the man or even a perpetual hater, and you can see the guy is lacking confidence in his J. Combine that with getting blocked trying to jam one home and the casual fans here are calling for an immediate trade. Just an update, ever since Z had his 500 foot surgeries, he has been stuffed quite often. That ain't a 2009/10 thing.

Personally this "trade Z" propaganda on this forum is very very short sighted. Firstly we need a legit center to continue keeping O'Neal's minutes down. Then you need a starter for those games where O'Neal cannot go. Move on to the fact that as the trade deadline approaches, so do the amount of available players. Moving Z right now doesn't make any sense unless there is a home run deal, of which I don't think any GM will agree to until the last minute. So please move on from this "trade Z now" tripe as it lacks logic in so many ways.

Now I mentioned in the game thread that Ilgauskas, despite his shooting slump, is still contributing to Cavalier victories. This isn't clear to the many uneducated fans out there, who some unfortunately call RCF's their home.

* Offensively, Z still is spreading the floor. If he continues to miss, that may change. But for now players are contesting his shots and that is dragging out the D.

* He is still allowing Coach Brown to sit O'Neal for very large periods of time. That is invaluable.

* Defensively Z is doing a job. Most don't see it, but Z's show on the ball handler is very effective. you only have to see the difference tonight with Wade. With Shaq who doesn't show he just gets inside with ease and has finished. We Z out there, Wade has to push wide before driving which gives the help defense oodles of time to come across. Missed shots and turnovers have been a result.

* Offensively Z still is playing the sets smart. He picks at the right time and has forced a couple of second chance opportunities.

Game is back on so I'll continue later......

I have been watching Cavs games since they came into the league and used to go to about 20 a year,you and I see things much differently my man.I like Z as a person,but I have seen and talked about his diminishing skills for a few years now.I know there is no perfect center or player but this guy gets far too much defense and excuse making for him IMO.I don`t have the time or even care that much to get into all the examples of why I think he is done.

 

[Big O]

As far as the fouls are concerned - that tends to happen when you play against Dwyane Wade. Shaq had 5 also. Parker had 4. Andy had 4.

And I disagree that "the Cavs are winning despite his awful play". I have already named my reasons, so no reason to repeat myself.

In 9 games he has one more defensive rebound than he does fouls.He is shooting 33% and is MR. ole on defense.Barkley said it right,though he wasn`t talking about Z,he was saying something like guys have to realize that father time takes over sooner or later and you have to realize it.

 

[Smooth]

Like I say every year, Z typically starts slow ... and having to come in cold (give or take a heat pack) doesn't help. Revisit after 20 games ...

You don't remember last year then when he was playing at what some said an "All-Star" level by shooting 54% from the field, and putting up 16 points a game through November... He also went on to put 11 points on 48% through December before getting hurt...

Or back in 2007-2008 when he started the season off shooting 49% and 47% from the field and putting up 14 points a game...

Or in 2005-2006 when he shot 47% and 52% from the field and put up 14 & 17 points a game..

Heck even the first five games he shot 54% from the field and put up 9 points...

In 2006-2007 he shot terribly after the first 8 games but then turned it up and finished out the 2006 year with high %'s...

The stats actually suggest quite the opposite of what you suggest... Historically the past 3 years he's started real hot and you could even say 4 years depending on how you look at it..

* He is still allowing Coach Brown to sit O'Neal for very large periods of time. That is invaluable.

With the way he's been playing, all he's been is another big body on the floor which really isn't invaluable to me...

* Defensively Z is doing a job. Most don't see it, but Z's show on the ball handler is very effective. you only have to see the difference tonight with Wade. With Shaq who doesn't show he just gets inside with ease and has finished. We Z out there, Wade has to push wide before driving which gives the help defense oodles of time to come across. Missed shots and turnovers have been a result.

If you're reserving to something that pretty much any decently mobile big can do to prove that Z is effective then that is a sign... Problem is that against better teams who move the ball is that they'll take advantage of dragging Z out of the paint and expose that...

* Offensively Z still is playing the sets smart. He picks at the right time and has forced a couple of second chance opportunities.

Again reserving to complementing to his "smart" play should be indictment in itself...

Look: I love Z and everything that he represents and am willing to give him until early December to get things figured out but right now it's painful watching him play...

One of the problems is not that he's not hitting shots it's that if he's not hitting shots, he's not contributing much to the team, especially offensively... He can't finish anymore, he doesn't have any post moves and he can't create anything for himself... Really the only thing he does offensively anymore is space the floor and pass the ball well... His spacing his invaluable but like someone mentioned earlier, if he doesn't hit those shots then his presence will be negated because teams will start sagging off of him...

Defensively while he's still done a decent job, he just can't co-exist with another slow, plodding center who also has trouble in transition and defending the P&R... He hasn't been a liability on defense but it's obvious he really isn't anything more than a big body on defense that basically is a deterrent in the paint and grabs some rebounds...

Like I also mentioned in another thread: the biggest problem with Z really has nothing to do with him directly but rather indirectly... This team just can't have two centers who have similar liabilities defensively... Now you can mention how his size will be valuable against the contenders and while that's all fine, that's only half true... His size will only get him as far as his mobility will allow him... The elite teams have big men with size and agility, not just one or the other... Z may have the size to battle Bynum, Howard, Duncan, etc., he has trouble with all of them because of his lack of mobility/agility... And having two centers who play major minutes with that problem is not good... No other elite team suffers from that...

I'm not saying trade him now because his contract will be invaluable but Z needs to either a). start playing well or b). the other bigs need more minutes while Z's minutes are cut down...

So PIP give me a rep because I ripped Z and Karma say I'm wrong because I now apparently hate him...

 

[GoGetta]

Z should be playing with lebron and shaq should ALWAYS be in when lebron sits.

 

[cavsguy13]

Over the years Z has been one of my favorite cleveland athletes not because of his success on the court but because of his character off of it. he represents and symbolizes the ultimate teammate and ultimate citizen. unfortunately, over the past year his ability on the court has deteriorated to a point where his effectiveness can legitimately be questioned by fans. he seems to have lost a step not only in his athletic ability but in his jumpshot which over the years almost became routine. Z's stuggles can be attributed to a number of things.
1) he lost his starting job and has to adjust to a new situation.
2) shaq's presense has possibly affected the ego of z because he realizes he is no longer the only big man on the team. z may feel left out or not as vital to the team.
3) z has a family now after adopting two children with his wife. he now envisions a life after basketball and he may be distracted.

Therefore i believe that if the right situation presents itself, one that can benefit the team in the long run, z should be traded. we gave him a career and stayed with him even when it seemed likely his career would be over because of his foot problems. It may be time for Z to make the ultimate sacrifice for the team by agreeing to be traded. it will be sad to see him leave as he did nothing to warrant his departure other than get older, which happens to each and everyone of us. z has been the ultimate cleveland cavalier. and if he is traded i plan to see his number retired in the rafters of the Q to remind cleveland fans of the outstanding man that Mr. Ilgauskas was and still is to this day.

 

[flamez]

Z should be playing with lebron and shaq should ALWAYS be in when lebron sits.

I'm guessing you're not watching the games. Z is seeing time with both Lebron and Mo. He is getting good looks from the perimeter but is missing.

Lebron is delivering the ball to him as he has always done but Z is not coming through.

I'm hoping this is a shooting slump and he snaps out of it. Regardless though, he has an expiring contract and if a trade is available that will improve this team then Z should be traded.

I'm still hoping for a Z, Hickson, Moon/Gibson/Green, draft picks for a star PF trade. Ofcourse that is wishful thinking.

 

[hendo24]

You don't remember last year then when he was playing at what some said an "All-Star" level by shooting 54% from the field, and putting up 16 points a game through November... He also went on to put 11 points on 48% through December before getting hurt...

Or back in 2007-2008 when he started the season off shooting 49% and 47% from the field and putting up 14 points a game...

Or in 2005-2006 when he shot 47% and 52% from the field and put up 14 & 17 points a game..

Heck even the first five games he shot 54% from the field and put up 9 points...

In 2006-2007 he shot terribly after the first 8 games but then turned it up and finished out the 2006 year with high %'s...

The stats actually suggest quite the opposite of what you suggest... Historically the past 3 years he's started real hot and you could even say 4 years depending on how you look at it..



With the way he's been playing, all he's been is another big body on the floor which really isn't invaluable to me...



If you're reserving to something that pretty much any decently mobile big can do to prove that Z is effective then that is a sign... Problem is that against better teams who move the ball is that they'll take advantage of dragging Z out of the paint and expose that...



Again reserving to complementing to his "smart" play should be indictment in itself...

Look: I love Z and everything that he represents and am willing to give him until early December to get things figured out but right now it's painful watching him play...

One of the problems is not that he's not hitting shots it's that if he's not hitting shots, he's not contributing much to the team, especially offensively... He can't finish anymore, he doesn't have any post moves and he can't create anything for himself... Really the only thing he does offensively anymore is space the floor and pass the ball well... His spacing his invaluable but like someone mentioned earlier, if he doesn't hit those shots then his presence will be negated because teams will start sagging off of him...

Defensively while he's still done a decent job, he just can't co-exist with another slow, plodding center who also has trouble in transition and defending the P&R... He hasn't been a liability on defense but it's obvious he really isn't anything more than a big body on defense that basically is a deterrent in the paint and grabs some rebounds...

Like I also mentioned in another thread: the biggest problem with Z really has nothing to do with him directly but rather indirectly... This team just can't have two centers who have similar liabilities defensively... Now you can mention how his size will be valuable against the contenders and while that's all fine, that's only half true... His size will only get him as far as his mobility will allow him... The elite teams have big men with size and agility, not just one or the other... Z may have the size to battle Bynum, Howard, Duncan, etc., he has trouble with all of them because of his lack of mobility/agility... And having two centers who play major minutes with that problem is not good... No other elite team suffers from that...

I'm not saying trade him now because his contract will be invaluable but Z needs to either a). start playing well or b). the other bigs need more minutes while Z's minutes are cut down...

So PIP give me a rep because I ripped Z and Karma say I'm wrong because I now apparently hate him...

I'm just anxious for Jon's rebuttal, because you know he has one, wrong or not.

 

[Karma]

So PIP give me a rep because I ripped Z and Karma say I'm wrong because I now apparently hate him...

Don't try and mix my words Smooth. I said the following...

There are a few members here who either don't like him, or just like the flashy play, or the box score kids, who just don't look at the whole picture.

Now if you see yourself as one of those few, then yes I was talking about you. Pip is certainly included in that bunch as he's been saying for about 5 years he's falling off a cliff but it never happened. He'll continue until finally he is right though.

As for your post, I'll agree to disagree. You have your opinion which differs to mine. Defensively I don't think you are giving him nearly enough credit. You say what he is doing is what any average big could do. What they "can" do, and what they actually do are two very different things. Ilgauskas continues to play into the defensive system of Coach Brown and do it effectively. Yeah he got dominated by Howard last year, but so did every other Cavalier big that series. No excuse though, it's obviously a little too much for him at this stage of his career. In comes Shaq.

The thing with Shaq is every second game we have foul trouble. We need a center who can play 20-30 minutes any given night. I still definitely prefer Z to Andy in this role generally, but there certainly are matchups where Varejao should be preferred. The beauty of having Hickson stepping up, Varejao able to play minutes at both spots, LeBron effective at the 4 is that we can then sit Z in his slumps. Just 1 week ago that wasn't the case with Hickson, and it could quite easily revert back to that. One Hickson breakout game doesn't make a season (although I hope it is a sign of things to come). So yeah, Z's role can be reduced if his game isn't functioning.

Now back to the trading Z campaign. I see its merits, just not right now. We are thin upfront until Hickson shows consistency, Powe comes back and shows he still got game, and Shaq along with Varejao stay healthy. That's a lot of ifs but possible. I'm personally not willing to risk that until Powe is back in action and we have a large sample size on Hickson. If all is pointing that those 4 guys will be enough along with Lebron playing some 4, then yeah look at Z as a trading point for an area of need.

Let's just remember there maybe a few players on the block right now that wouldn't look too bad as Cavalier's, but I bet you in February there will be those same players, plus more. If we are going to make another move involving a key member, I'd like to have a more expansive selection.

 

[DougHeil]

Now back to the trading Z campaign. I see its merits, just not right now. We are thin upfront until Hickson shows consistency, Powe comes back and shows he still got game, and Shaq along with Varejao stay healthy. That's a lot of ifs but possible. I'm personally not willing to risk that until Powe is back in action and we have a large sample size on Hickson. If all is pointing that those 4 guys will be enough along with Lebron playing some 4, then yeah look at Z as a trading point for an area of need.

This. ^^^^^^

 

[Paddington]

I'm not calling you stupid. I'm calling the logic that Z is struggling because he is coming off the bench stupid. Whether it's you or any other person that idea is pretty dumb, IMO.

Get a clue.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
This isn't the CYO, this is the NBA.

Ask Allen Iverson...4X scoring champion and former league MVP how easy it is to come off the bench when you're used to starting.

 

[CleveRocks]

A whole lotta passion about the big guy, but not much looking into the problem.

Karma makes an impassioned case for keeping Z, while thirty other less informed make cases for throwing him under a bus. I say less informed because apparently they have not examined the play by play or looked at the team +- when Z is on the floor because even when he hits 0%, the team is better with him than without.

If we are going to look into anything other than peoples uninformed opinions (which like assholes all are pretty shitty), why don't we take a shot at why Z is missing his J. Has any of you who actually know the game noticed if his mechanics are worse than last year, or perhaps his positioning is off, or maybe it has something to do with where he gets the ball from the new players. There is a reason, we just don't know it. I personally suspect his back is still nto 100%, but what do I know?

As for Z trading talk, this is just silly. For Stephen Jackson? That is even more ridiculous. You have all heard Mike Brown say he is only going to use Loom and Doom against teams that play two centers.....Like Orlando and LA..... Whom we will have to beat to win rings... Hello McFly. Z is staying for the champaign, and I think Lebron wants to respect that and Z wants to make that happen. So lets see if anyone has any insight on WHY Z's jumper has evaporated. Max, this woudl be a good time to make an appearance, if the panicposters have not run you off entirely.